RE: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:12:18 -0500
No it is not.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 1:02 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
My argue was that python is less friendly because it forces us to use
indentation. Isn't that true?
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>
> I think I am done with this thread to. As for the VS .net I agree not
> only
> that but try to use C++ builder without some kind of scripts it's a mess.
> So that means to code accessibly without scripts you have to use your own
> editor and a command line which is an accessibility change in itself. If
> you turn off the scripts in visual studio the intelesense goes dead, not
> only that but with out
> scripts designing forms are dead, finally even with the scripts there are
> parts of 2008 that are not accessible.
>
> If you get right down to it even Teddy's favorite language has
> accessibility
> problems. The worst one is there is little to no structure so there can
> be
> all kinds of stuff crammed together which makes it hard to read the flow
> of
> the program with a screen reader. Unless you know the code enough to read
> it in your sleep. I find that same problem with some C code so it's
> really
> what you get used to.
>
> Anyway like I said I am done with this thread because we are arguing with
> someone who doesn't even know what he is arguing against as you have
> pointed
> out.
>
> Ken
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nick Stockton
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:10 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>
> This will be my last response to this thread as I think it's gone from
> someone asking a simple thing, For people to recommend a good programming
> language for someone with no programming experience to learn to an
> attack/defend python thread.
>
> You asked:
> """
> In perl you can write the entire program in a single line. You can even
> write the program in the command line. Can you do that with python?
> """
>
> Yes you can do boath with python.
>
> You asked:
> """
> In perl you can split an expression on more lines and it will work. Can
> you
> do the same thing with python?
> """
>
> yes you can do that with python.
>
> You stated:
> """
> In perl you can indent the code with more or less spaces, whatever you
> like,
>
> or you can not indent the code at all. But you can't do that with python.
> """
>
> in python you can indent the code with more or less spaces as well even
> just
>
> one space as long as you indent. I tend to use four spaces as for me,
> anything more is to many and anything less is to few.
>
> Also in another message you asked:
> """
> If python wouldn't have this issue of indentation, it wouldn't need
> workarounds for making it a little bit friendlier.
> So I don't understand what you don't like when I said that python is less
> friendly for the blind than other languages.
> """
>
> Because most languages and programs in general for that matter to one
> extent
>
> or another can be a little unfriendly and require workarounds. I
> mentioned
> visual studio in my last message. Do you think it would be very
> accessible
> with out the screen reader scripts for it? The screen reader scripts and
> learning all the hotkeys for them are probably even bigger workarounds
> then
> adding a couple commented braces in python code. I don't use VS so
> someone
> else will have to confirm that but I do define screen reader scripts as
> workarounds. Now lets say you use the console to compile and you get some
> output that scrolls off the screen. As far as I know it's quite hard for
> a
> blind user to use the cmd scrollback buffer and so What do you do? You
> pipe
>
> the output to a text file and read it with a text editor or pipe it
> directly
>
> to a program for reading even though it might be a bit inconvenient to do.
> Pipes are workarounds too.
>
> Nick Stockton
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:20 AM
> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>
>
>> In perl you can write the entire program in a single line. You can even
>> write the program in the command line. Can you do that with python?
>>
>> In perl you can split an expression on more lines and it will work. Can
>> you do the same thing with python?
>>
>> In perl you can indent the code with more or less spaces, whatever you
>> like, or you can not indent the code at all. But you can't do that with
>> python.
>>
>> Generally in perl you can do the same thing in very many ways, while in
>> python you are forced to do it in the single accepted way, and that's why
>> I don't like it.
>>
>> Octavian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:30 AM
>> Subject: RE: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What the heck are you talking about strict? There is only one other
>>> language that even comes close to being less strict and that would be
>>> pearl
>>> and I am not sure it is.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>>> Rasnita
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:36 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>
>>> Well, not only the indentation makes me not like python, but also the
>>> fact
>>> that it is too strict, that it doesn't let you to create and arrange the
>>> code how you like.
>>>
>>> Java/C#/perl programs can be written even in a single line of code if
>>> the
>>> programmer wants that, and if the code is correct, it will run fine.
>>> Maybe
>>> there could be a few things that should be written in separate lines,
>>> but
>
>>> I
>>> like to be able to arrange the code how I like.
>>>
>>> Octavian
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>
>>>
>>>> Teddy has a great fear of the indentation requirements in Python's
>>>> sintax.
>>>
>>>> Needless to say, I also would disagree with his dismissing it out of
>>>> hand.
>>>>
>>>> JW
>>>>
>>>> Nick Stockton wrote:
>>>>> Hmmm why do you say python is "one of the least friendly programming
>>>>> languages for the blind"? I started learning python a month or so ago
>>>>> and in around a week I had written a program complete with a GUI and
>>>>> install wizard that looks up barcodes on bcscan.com and will
>>>>> automatically speak the output using the jfw and wineyes com objects
>>>>> as
>>>>> well as putting the output in a read-only edit box and automatically
>>>>> setting focus to it so the output can be reviewed with the up and down
>>>>> arrows. I also made a button to pull up the edit page on bcscan.com
>>>>> for
>>>>> the item you scanned in your default web browser so you can add or
>>>>> edit
>>>>> the item info. I also made hotkeys ALT-b to set focus to the barcode
>>>>> entry edit box, ALT-o to set focus to the output and alt-e to activate
>>>>> the add/edit button. All this from me, a python newbie who doesn't
>>>>> know
>>>>> any other programming language in just over a week!
>>>>> And what you might ask is my secret? Three things: The python
>>>>> tutorial
>>>>> at python.org, the speakup screen reader under gnu/linux and my most
>>>>> secret weapon of all... google.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick Stockton
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita"
>>>>> <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 2:58 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No I don't recommend perl if is needed to create that kind of
>>>>>> program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perl is the best for web apps which are not very simple, and it is
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> good for desktop apps that require some specific things that can be
>>>>>> done
>>>
>>>>>> using some CPAN modules, because that way the coder won't need to do
>>>>>> very low-level programming as he might need to do with languages
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> Java or python.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the program is just one that should be used by a single person,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> if it doesn't need to be portable, and if it doesn't require very
>>>>>> complicated things, I would also recommend C#. I don't like VB.net
>>>>>> though. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, from the perspective of accessibility and responsiveness, the
>>>>>> best choice is no doubt C++ with MFC, but it is much harder to create
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> program with C++/MFC than with DotNet, so DotNet is now prefered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, Java with SWT could be also a solution, but unfortunately
>>>>>> there is no accessible forms designer for the blind for creating
>>>>>> programs with SWT like with DotNet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And python is one of the least friendly programming language for the
>>>>>> blind so of course I can't recommend it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Octavian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Littlefield"
>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 4:17 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would recommend c# or vb.net.
>>>>>>> Teddy will no doubt recommend perl, but I think vb.net or c# would
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> the best for you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>>> email: tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> web: tysdomain-com
>>>>>>> Visit for quality software and web design.
>>>>>>> skype: st8amnd2005
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Lomeli"
>>>>>>> <jose.lomeli93@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:18 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: e: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am thinking of using python or vb6 or any other ones. I want to
>>>>>>>> create a checkings and savings program. Please write back.
>>>>>>>> From Jose Lomeli.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Tyler Littlefield" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:04:17 -0700
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> hello,
>>>>>>>>> first we need to decide what language your going to use. any
>>>>>>>> ideas?
>>>>>>>>> What kind of programs do you want to write?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>>>>>>>> email: tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> web: tysdomain-com
>>>>>>>>> Visit for quality software and web design.
>>>>>>>>> skype: st8amnd2005
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Jose Lomeli" <jose.lomeli93@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:57 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello; Listers, I am new to programming and I want to start
>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>>> this. What are some tips and tricks I should know about and
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>> program do I use for this and where can I download it? Please
>>>>>>>>>> write back.
>>>>>>>>>> From Jose Lomeli.
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