Here is a small article I have found to tell a bit of what I have been going on about. http://www.pageresource.com/zine/webcolors.htm JohnPG search for all of your Jaws scripts at http://www.blindcrawler.com/ Also be sure to check out Blind Crawler's Legend of the Green Dragon server at http://www.blindcrawler.com/lotg/ There will be more to come from Blind Crawler very soon. Administrator: John Greer Blind Crawler.com ----- Original Message ----- From: dusty bray To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 7:28 PM Subject: RE: colors and backgrounds for web pages Yeah, i do agree with what you're saying: you shouldn't try to take the art out of designing anything. Even sighted people ask opinions on their work. The only thing i was trying to say is that i think it would be good if the blind community had a descent model just as a starting point. Even sighted people who design documents professionally go by such models. As a programmer, i can't help but think quantitatively. smile Several of you suggested your own simple models (this color usually goes with this color, etc.). Aside from artistic preferences, these choices are mostly based on physical causes (some color combinations are actually irritating to the eyes). But i think there could be value in something more detailed that can be used as a standard reference, not a cure-all. Of course, the algorithm shouldn't take into consideration all aspects of the CSS, such as images, only those aspects that could be easily quantified, such as background versus foreground combinations or font choice. Such a model might help totally blind users to relate concrete metrics to otherwise arbitrary, visual concepts. dusty....... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: colors and backgrounds for web pages Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:37:12 -0500 Agreed, the problem here is as I have said there is no one set in stone method of choosing colors. I believe a misconception of css is that because it is put into a style sheet that it is automatically a good choice if designed by a sighted person. What a style sheet is is a way for a website to have the same look throughout the website design. It is also used by screen readers as a standard that they can check to get the layout of the page. It cannot however tell you whether or not the colors chosen on a website are the correct ones to appeal to a wider audience. An example of what I mean is, there are also websites that have a static background image. Meaning that the picture of the deer they have as a background picture does not scroll as a person is scrolling through the text on the page. The text however does. This in effect will cause the text to sometimes be on a brown backing, or a red backing, or even a white backing. Because that reindeer picture does not move the person designing the website has to make a good choice as far as text color so that it is still readable in contrast to the picture used in the background. Although it can be said that black text would work, the person also has to keep in mind, is the text size too small if I scroll it here or there thus making it hard to read? Yep there are times when even a person with perfect 20 20 vision can't read a website simply because of the layout of a page. Much of the final design on a website has to rely on user feedback. Is the site boring? Is the site to hard to look at for long periods of time? I am sorry to say there is no magic mathematical formula to tell you what will appeal to sighted users. For that you do have to just rely on your user feedback. Yahoo for instance with it's first design was fairly similar to google in its layout. It had its logo with a few links on the main page. But as customer interest dropped they redesigned their website to make it more visually appealing to the users they had giving them feedback. It of course did not appeal to everyone, me for instance. I feel now that Yahoo has become far to cluttered in its design and it now takes away from its actual purpose, to be a search engine. Now even visually you have to search around the page just to find the edit box to type in a search. JohnPG search for all of your Jaws scripts at http://www.blindcrawler.com/ Also be sure to check out Blind Crawler's Legend of the Green Dragon server at http://www.blindcrawler.com/lotg/ There will be more to come from Blind Crawler very soon. Administrator: John Greer Blind Crawler.com ----- Original Message ----- From: tribble To: programmingblind@freelistsorg Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: Re: colors and backgrounds for web pages Hi Dusty -- Well it is a novel approach, but it might be hard to draw subjective information from a survey of style sheets on the net -- for example, suppose a Christmas site contains a background image of raindeer on a snowy landscape with bits of red and green to add color. Well, raindeer are light brown and snow is white, so would the search engine conclude that white and brown, the predominant colors, are Christmas colors? Anyway, just a thought -- Perhaps I should go to your site and read what you wrote... Anyway, happy hacking. --le ----- Original Message ----- From: dusty bray To: programmingblind@freelistsorg Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:06 PM Subject: RE: colors and backgrounds for web pages Ya know, this is a another problem i've been wanting to address for a while. Like Laura suggested, i believe CSS is the answer. The only problem is selecting the correct CSS for the right mood / occasion. i think i wrote about this plan on my website, and i'm curious if this method would help: First, a Web crawler could scour the Internet for as many style-sheets as it can find. Then a program could use some basic machine learning to categorize them. The algorithm might even consider the content of the pages which use the CSS. For instance, the language of a Web page could be given a rating between "casual" and "professional". If certain color combinations are used more frequently, we can assume these schemes are more readable. After the style-sheets are categorized, the user could search for the best scheme based on some criteria. For instance, a user may want a 90% professional and 100% readable scheme. Or maybe the user wants a scheme for Halloween or Christmas. What do you all think? Too bad i never have time to implement half the stuff i want to. i'd like to know if any of my ideas would actually help. Hmmm... dusty....... > From: lupshaw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: colors and backgrounds for web pages > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:00:31 -0800 > > Hi everyone, > > Sighted people are giving me a hard time because my web pages aren't > breathing fires of colorful flames! *smile* Where can I go, or what should > I study to learn about colors and backgrounds for web pages? Also, is this > something that blind people can really do? Or, will I need lots of sighted > assistance? > > With All Respect, > Upshaw, LaMar T > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! Try now! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! Try now!