I will accede to your experience JW. I use VS and only write a script when necessary. I have not used the Command Line so will not be able to defend nor attack that approach. I use the built-in objects in the Tool Box and many of the Wizards, Designers and other features to positive and timely consequence.
Rick USA----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 6:20 AM Subject: Re: code window
I agree with you on all points, but one. I do not feel that I am at an efficiency disadvantage working at command line interfaces. I confess there've been a couple things I dipped in VS for, but I see no point in going through all the headache of making it 100% accessible and using it for all of my development when I can just use the other methods already discussed. I find ways to navigate it with a combination of experimentation and some very hastily written Window Eye sscripts, on the occasions it is absolutely necessary, but those instances are very few and far between. I'm not interested in making it more accessible than the other solutions I already know about that can accomplish equal tasks just as well. You hold the theory that you are somehow less capable without using this particular development aid. That is not a theory I subscribe to, based on my experiences and consultations with more seasoned software developers, both sighted and blind. There's nothing else I can really say on the topic.JW On 10/29/2009 5:57 AM, RicksPlace wrote:Hi JW: First, the VS IDE has Massive Power which you would never be able to ReCreate in any manner using the Command Line if time were any component of an application project. There are some very nice features you can use in the VS IDE using hot keys. You can set the IDE up how you like and then use the hot keys to read things when you want. To make the entire IDE read very well you could either buy or create a Windoweyes Script. The WE Scripting Engine accesses the DOM directly and can use MSAA Events as well as other Events to handle the Speaking of Windows in the IDE. That means you should be able to have the Intellisense, Parm Options, Database Features and other Windows like the Output or error windows read only when you press a hot key if you want. Other than these IDE Features what features would you want to use that could not be made to read very well with a script? Perhaps the windows that use diagrams but then there should be MSAA or other accessibility hooks in the DOM to use with a script to make those windows read better as well. So, I am not sure about why a Professional Programmer would elect to use the very, very inefficient command line methods of programming instead of the massive power of the VS IDE if they were going to have to program full-time in that environment. It would be a hassle to create a really professional script, I guess that is why it has not been done, but it could be done and it could make the VS IDE extremely accessible without having to jump through any hoops to work-around some of it's inherrantly inaccessible objects. That would include the bloody Error Window that is always the first problem a nube encounters and asks about using either JAWS or Windoweyes.Rick USA----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:51 PM Subject: Re: code windowI suppose. I think my issues are more with VS rather than with any level of accessibility for it. I felt like I spent as much time trying to override VS's natural tendencies in the effort of making it accessible as using it, nullifying whatever productivity gain I might have gotten from it. Doesn't it seem to you that a lot of making VS accessible is turning off or hamstringing what're considered some of its better features? Its interface, just, in my opinion, adapts less than ideally to a nonvisual information medium. Eclipse seems to still understand that you're writing code. It's just trying to help you write it faster. VS, by contrast, tries its best to let you literally program with the mouse. It really is trying for software development with a GUI interface. Because of these different approaches I perceive in the two programs' philosophies, one is a smoother accessibility adaptation than the other. But, I use Eclipse almost daily and VS only when I have to, so I might just have the natural bias of liking what I'm used to.JW On 10/26/2009 7:13 PM, The Elf wrote:heh? VS is very accessible, later elf proprietor, The Grab Bag, for blind computer users and programmers http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises "own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!" www.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:21 AM Subject: Re: code windowOn 10/26/2009 11:32 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote:"what employer will say that's ok johnny you don't have to deal with theide problems."An intelligent one. If the employer has issues with Johnny, they'll probably be centered around Johnny not producing. If Johnny can't use the IDE and can't find a suitable substitute method for getting the same work done, than he deserves a rebuke from his employer. But be clear, he's getting a rebuke for his lack of output, not because he's using text-based solutions Vs. GUI-based ones. I promise you, if you're a competent developer, the powers that be will remain indifferent towards a few alternate routes. Blind folk that take this idealistic approach to using GUIs are just wasting their time.GUI based dev environment's exist that I find to be useful, even as a blind person. Eclipse, namely. But that's because the GUI can be made accessible with reasonably little fuss and with serious benefits to my productivity. I haven't had the same experience with Visual Studio and so feel that finding alternative methods is often appropriate. It's not about how you get it done--it's about getting it done one way or another.Furthermore, I know the IDE's are popular, but I know a lot of sighted peers who have their own preferences for text editors and CLIs and what have you. It's just not the blind kids using them.JW __________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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