Octavian,
your talking about using hot keys, did you ever wonder what else that
"windows key" is good for, *sigh* Octavian you just contradicted yourself
with that one, there are a half dozen built in hot keys using the windows
key, and there is a mini application that will let you program any number
of them for yourself.
its called winkey, and its available from:
www.jfwlite.com
laters,
inthane
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Percinic" <mario.percinic@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 1:29 AM
Subject: RE: Window Eyes
Bla bla bla bla bwoioioioioing!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 9:46 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Window Eyes
Oh yes, I like to learn new ways of doing things if I need to explain
them
to the clients, to tell them what they need to do in order to use our
applications, and I also like the new things that are real improvements.
But I don't like the changes when I need to use them myself and when they
are not improvements.
Is the Windows key an improvement? For me it is not at all, because I
don't
know if I use the Start menu 10 times a week, and this usually happends
when
I press there "u" for "Shut down".
I prefer to define hotkeys for the most used applications.
That's why I take off the Windows and context menu keys from the newer
keyboards right after I buy them.
What should I change for finding those changes a good thing? To do a lot
of
manual work and start the applications from the Start menu instead of
using
hotkeys?
Right after installing Windows and Jaws, it usually takes me a week to
find
all the settings and changing I want. The first thing is to make some
Windows settings, then to put Jaws to speak as few things as possible if
they are not needed (for example I comment every SayTutorial line from
the
default.jss, because if I press insert+tab, I don't find useful to hear
"press left or right arrows to select an item))
I also don't like to hear "unread" for every new message in Outlook
Express,
because I jump to the new messages using Control+U, and I always know
that
the message is an unread one. And after some time, I know that a message
is
an unread one if Jaws tell me "bold" when I press Insert+F on it.
I know that the most companies don't care for those who know to use very
well a computer, but do care for the masses, for those who don't know,
because they bring more money, and for those users is important to give
more
hints, tips and helpful information that they never read anyway.
I understand that an american might not understand a text that contains
many
letters that sound like degrees, thorn, and other strange like these, and
it
would be much friendly to speak those letters as s and t.
Even the name of the capital of Romania is spoken and written as
Bucharest
in english, although it should be written as Bucureşti, with a degrees
letter in it, and read something like Bucureshti, but it was changed to
be
easily for the masses.
Adapting to what the masses prefer means becoming more stupid, and I
don't
like that, because I am not very intelligent anyway.
:-)
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pratik Patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 12:43 AM
Subject: RE: Window Eyes
Octavian,
Please take this is a friendly message.
The world of programming, out of all fields, is an extraordinarily
growing
and changing field. New things are invented and discarded. It's hard to
keep up as it is even if you're not a blind programmer. And, it is even
more difficult when you are blind because the tools take a little while
to
catch up. You have to be willing to experiment, change your ways, learn
new
things--especially if you don't like them, and be absolutely quick about
it.
If you can't or unwilling, you run the large risk of becoming a relic.
Pratik
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
Rasnita
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 12:51 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Window Eyes
Well, you are right about Jaws, but I can't say that Window Eyes is
better
if it can't work at all with SWING apps, I also don't know how well it
works
with programs like Visual Studio, but my complaints about it is not
regarding the things that I need to learn, but the things that I need to
get
used to, and which are easier to access under Jaws, as I explained
before.
If someone likes to work with the num pad for using arrow keys, ... it's
own
job, but I don't like it at all.
I never like changing things, and I don't want to leave my country.
I have a good job and I don't want to change it, and that's why I like to
use a certain program like I used to use it in previous versions.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario Percinic" <mario.percinic@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Window Eyes
Well, that's the problem my friend because you don't like to learn new
things and you'll always stay behind, mumbeling that this or that
doesn't
work as you expect. If someone who is blined wants to be good in what
ever
feeld, specially I.T, he or she has to learn allot in order to have good
information and in order to represent blind community. First, try to
ajust
to new software, learn how to use it, and don't expect from it to do
exactly what its suppose to do as your previous screen reader did,
because
windoweyes is not jaws, it has its own strenghs and weeknesses, but
stating that jaws is the best screen reader, is just not right from
various points of view. First, windoweyes people never released their
version out before they weren't sure that 99 % of the things worked as
they expected, which is not the case with freedom scientific. So many
versions of jaws came out which from time to time became more and more
buggy, and since jfw 7, from user points of few we can't see nothing
special in the improvement of new versions, just various changes
reguarding controls of this or that application. Jaws 8 ... what was
that, nothing, unstable comercial application, for which some users paid
hell allot of money. vista was released, all other screen readers
including, dolphins hal, system access, gw's windoweyes and even
nonvisual desktop access which is open source screen reader found better
way how to handle problems with vista than it was the case with freedom
scientific.
Ok, jaws 9 is released, and since i'm using it, i can see that its
stability improved, but on the other hand freedom is geting worse and
worse in their sapi5 support, which is very funny, considering the case
where FS people advertize support for sapi5 and their partnership with
nuance which provides realspeak tts synths which are btw multilingual.
Maybe jfw 9 works good only with english synths and switching between
eloquence and some realspeak tts works good, but when there are
different
languages and tts synths installed on the system and when jaws 9 is
used,
it has really lots of problems with sapi5, and that's because of very
bad
sapi 5 jaws driver for it. That means again that someone who is
programming and testing the application did very bad job at the beta
testing stage.
I worked in the Croatian association of the blind, oficial Jaws dealer
for
Croatia and since i started to notice the problems with various sapi5
synths, i was reporting the problems to freedom scientific very
frequently, exchanged lots of email messages with them providing them
with
all info they needed and even had a few phone calls with their tech
support. What i got as the end answer from their tech support is
something
like this:
"hello, we are working for sapi5 support for arabic speech synth which
will work with jaws. On our systems we don't have problems wehn the
speech
synths are switched, so we can tell that jaws works good with sapi5
support".
After the answer like this, what can you think about it. Nothing
special,
Freedom scientific is doing what they think is the best, and they don't
care for the end customers, which is not the case with the rest of the
companys involved in the screen reader development.
Gw came out with universal scripting system for windoweyes and com
automation objects which supports scripting in what ever programming
language. and i'm very curious with what will fs do to keep up, i'm
afraid
nothing special. More and more users will slowly switch to windoweyes,
why, because for the same amount of money you will get more features and
much better tech support, + when you want to use remote desktop, you
don't
need to pay extra 200 bucks just to get support for rdp which is the
case
with jaws. When you buy windoweyes you get portable version which works
very wel from the thumb drive.
I'm not going to state the names of very good blind developers and
computer users just to protect them, but from their statements on
various
lists, blogs and shows, you can see that they are acomplishing their
daily
tasks much better with windoeyes than with jaws, which wasn't the case a
few years back.
Someone stated a few days ago that todays screen reader success is in
the
scripting support, and really that's true, who ever finds a better way
how
to write easy interface for scripting which will provide easy usage and
good flexibility, is the winner.
What to tell you at the end, just what i told you at the beginning, stop
complaining and start learning new things. If you will be good in the
things you do, you can look for the jobs in the other countrys and leave
Romania, at leest that's what i do now.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Window Eyes
Sorry but I don't agree.
As I said, Insert+tab for reading the current control that has the
focus
is one of the most used keys I use in Jaws, and I am used to never use
the num pad, which I don't like at all.
It is more ergonomical to leave my right hand over the arrow keys and
insert/delete/page up/down/home/end keys, and my left hand on the left
of
the keyboard, and as the Insert key is the most important key I got
used
to use in a screen reader, I found much easier to use insert+Tab
instead
of moving the right hand for typing Control+Shift+S as Jamal told that
would make almost the same thing in Window Eyes.
Oh, in fact maybe I'm lieing, because a hotkey that I use even more
than
Insert+Tab, is Insert+F12 for hearing the time.
I need to use that for hearing the time, and for beeing sure that the
computer is responding, or for hearing if the keyboard is not locked
(put
in help mode on).
And Insert+F12 is also much easier to type than Insert+T, because those
keys are very closed and I can do it with a single hand.
And by the way, the most used screen reader is Jaws for the moment, and
many users that use Jaws should make an effort for passing from it to
Window Eyes, so offering a way of using the same key layout could be an
advantage for attracting those users.
I like reading, listening music, and doing other things, but I don't
like
learning. I like to know more and more useful things, but I don't like
to
make an effort without benefits.
If Window Eyes would be offering the same key layout as Jaws, it would
be
much easier for Jaws users.
I need to learn programming because otherwise I can't write programs
and
I can't do what I want. But if I don't like Window Eyes' hotkeys, I use
Jaws.
As I told before, I had previously tested Window Eyes, but I didn't
like
that I needed to use the num pad, and that's why I use Jaws.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared Wright" <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Window Eyes
Octavian Rasnita wrote:
"even after installing the Eloquence common modules and Eloquence for
English language manually from the Window Eyes package, even though
it
installed successfully, I can't detect Eloquence with Jaws..."
Doesn't JFW use a modified version of Eloquence?
One thing I'm noticing is that you are wanting, as you have stated
yourself, JFW with a diferent name, better stability, etc. I want to
destroy the notion of this ever happening now. Window Eyes and JFW,
while targeting a similar set of users, have fundamental differences.
You can't simply slap the JFW frontend onto the underlying structure
of
Window Eyes.
In my opinion, Window Eyes has the potential to become the definitive
choice for Windows users' looking for a screen reader, assuming
they're
open to commercial products. What we've heard about Window Eyes 7 is
exciting and, if managed right, could really make Window Eyes'
capability grow exponentially.
But for as good as Window Eyes is or will become, it will never be
truly
useful if one approaches it as if they're getting an upgrade of sorts
to
their version of JFW. I discourage JFW converts from using the JAWS
layout, to be honest, because I think the advantages of Window Eyes
are
more apparent and appreciated when viewed in their native context. I
know some users who have successfully switched back to the JAWS layout
for the familiarity of so many hot keys, but they for a time ran
Window
Eyes completely the way its developers envisioned it to really grasp
how
it works. Perhaps most importantly, how it worked differently than
JFW.
Teddy and others, Window Eyes might be able to do a lot for you now,
and
I suspect that will only increase in the near future with the new
release. But I strongly advise that you approach it as you would any
new
application you're interested in, learning its own unique nuances,
quirks, and ways of handling things.
Best,
Jared
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