Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind

  • From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:43:56 +0300

Ok, thank you for that link.

Octavian

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: dusty bray 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 9:19 PM
  Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind


  Well i probably shouldn't open this can of worms, but i'm making a subtle 
statement by using Math ML in my application.  i think that things should be 
done the right way the first time.  So many different types of content can be 
embeded into Web pages, but we still haven't adopted a standard way of 
representing mathematics simply because sighted users would rather just use 
graphics.  The only other popular alternative is an ad hoc ASCII system for 
representing mathematics-- and i see mathematics as an absolute essential in 
communication.  i see this as not only the right step for the blind, but for 
communication in general.

  In my opinion, the blind community should be the first to make a stand 
because sighted users just aren't going to get it.

  So in the mean time, you could install a plug-in if you're using Internet 
Explorer:  http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathplayer/download.htm?src=mplogo
  Math Player displays mathematics very, very nicely for sighted users and also 
reads it very well for blind users.  You can also use my browser / screen 
reader to traverse mathematical expressions, but i'll admit this version isn't 
really very usable yet.
  The other alternative is to use a standards compliant browser, like Fire Fox, 
until Microsoft gets with the program.

  dusty.......


  > From: orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
  > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
  > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:42:18 +0300
  > 
  > I think that the time needed for hearing "button" is not longer than the 
  > time needed to hear a beep, but it is more clear what it refers to than a 
  > beep.
  > 
  > The comparison with how the sighted associated those form elements is not 
  > valid in my opinion. Why?
  > 
  > A sighted person can associate a raised form button with a real button 
  > because a real button is usually raised. But a blind person cannot 
naturally 
  > associate a real button with a certain beep, because the buttons usually 
  > don't beep, but if they will hear that element is a "button", it would be 
  > very clear.
  > 
  > I've seen you've used MathML in your html document, but can you tell us how 
  > can we read those math formulas? Internet Explorer doesn't read them right 
  > for sure.
  > 
  > Octavian
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:50 AM
  > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
  > 
  > 
  > > This method of generating audio icons is interesting. It does appear to 
  > > hold the potential of speeding up computing, but it might have a steep 
  > > learning curve as the new user will have to take lots of time out to 
learn 
  > > the sounds then create the mental associations with the sound and the 
  > > intended action. In other words, there is a possibility of new users 
  > > giving up on it as they might deem it much more difficult to use than the 
  > > more common methods of computing. That is, it will be easier for them to 
  > > know what to do with an audio message telling them "Ok," than an audio 
  > > message telling them "beep beep." Now that I think of it, if you attach 
  > > piano sounds to the audio-icons you might end up composing quite a 
musical 
  > > piece and not even know it.
  > >
  > > Then again there is the noise factor as all these strange sounds might 
  > > annoy or at the very least distract others in the vicinity.
  > >
  > > I do believe that your audio-icons do have great potential in that they 
  > > can be of great use to power users that only need that tiny hint of 
  > > reassurance they're moving along and clicking what they intend to click.
  > >
  > > "Oh wait," I just thought of something, doesn't this type of computing 
  > > already exist to some extent within the Jaws speech and sounds manager?
  > >
  > > Regardless, I would continue exploring this interaction channel as it 
  > > might ultimately yield lots of efficiency for the proficient blind 
  > > computer user.
  > >
  > > Thanks,
  > > Matthew
  > > ---- Original Message ----- 
  > > From: "dusty bray" <dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  > > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:19 PM
  > > Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind
  > >
  > >
  > >>
  > >> Yeah, you're definitely right, inthane-- it should have an option to 
turn 
  > >> off the sounds, but this version is severely lacking in many, many ways 
  > >> right now. i just wanted to give everyone an idea of how this system 
  > >> works.
  > >>
  > >> And honestly, i think if i gave that option initially, then everyone 
  > >> would just turn it off and not actually try to make it work smile. i 
  > >> anticipate this being somewhat of a learning curve because the user has 
  > >> to build mental connections between a sound and its meaning. In the same 
  > >> way, users had difficulty transitioning from command line to Windows 
  > >> based operating systems because the graphical symbols were totally 
  > >> unfamiliar at first. But today, there exists a universally recognized 
  > >> set of graphics for identifying objects, and these graphics allow 
sighted 
  > >> users to work more efficiently now. i see an opportunity to use 
  > >> background noises for the same purpose. You could fit a lot of useful 
  > >> information in that empty space.
  > >>
  > >> Of course, Windows has already tried to incorporate sounds into the 
  > >> interface, but these sounds were used very inappropriately. Instead of 
  > >> associating objects with sounds, they associated actions with sounds, 
  > >> which gives information after the fact. So even as i use this new 
  > >> system, i'm having to consciously reprogram myself not to think of these 
  > >> sounds as actions but as markers for object types.
  > >>
  > >> But i do want to know if people find this particular set of sounds 
  > >> overbearing. Should i adjust the volumes? Can you hear the voice 
  > >> clearly over the sounds?
  > >>
  > >> Also, did you ever recieve my original message?? That's really strange. 
  > >> It's still programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, right?
  > >>
  > >> Ok, well definitely give me your oppinion if you get a chance to use the 
  > >> software. Thanks,
  > >>
  > >> dusty.......
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>
  > >>> From: inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  > >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  > >>> Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
  > >>> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:23:42 -0700
  > >>>
  > >>> interesting, I got your reply to Dusty's message, but haven't received 
  > >>> the
  > >>> original even yet, hmmmmm!
  > >>>
  > >>> I haven't tried your ap yet Dusty, but it would be nice if you could 
  > >>> reverse
  > >>> things, in other words, turn off the added sounds, and return it to full
  > >>> speaking of the items, since I don't do well with sounds, maybe a check 
  > >>> box
  > >>> in an options menu/dialog for changing it, giving the user the choice?
  > >>>
  > >>> regards,
  > >>> inthane
  > >>> ? For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and 
  > >>> Links
  > >>> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
  > >>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
  > >>> ? to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
  > >>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
  > >>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
  > >>>
  > >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
  > >>> From: "John covici" <covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  > >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  > >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:49 PM
  > >>> Subject: Web Page Editor for the Blind
  > >>>
  > >>>
  > >>> >I wonder if it would work with hardware speech at all since the speech
  > >>> > and the sound may get out of sync? Ever test this?
  > >>> >
  > >>> > on Wednesday 10/10/2007 dusty bray(dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx) wrote
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > Hi everybody,
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web page editor that
  > >>> > > i$,1rym starting and give some feedback.
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this program that i 
  > >>> > > hope
  > >>> > > will allow blind users to easily create content-rich Web pages.
  > >>> > > i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical expression 
  > >>> > > editor.
  > >>> > > And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the other surprises i$,1ryve
  > >>> > > added.
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > This application also introduces a new concept for quickly
  > >>> > > differentiating between controls in the editor$,1rys interface. In
  > >>> > > applications designed for sighted users, components are visually
  > >>> > > distinct: buttons appear raised, text boxes appear inset, and each 
  > >>> > > item
  > >>> > > differs in some way that suggests its intended function. Page 
  > >>> > > Designer
  > >>> > > achieves this effect auditorily. The application plays programmatic
  > >>> > > sounds in parallel with voice output to quickly identify both an
  > >>> > > object$,1rys type and its value. So rather than speaking "OK 
  > >>> > > button",
  > >>> > > the editor speaks "OK" and plays a popping sound at the same moment,
  > >>> > > effectively saving half the number of syllables. Textboxes are
  > >>> > > associated with a tapping sound; picture boxes are accompanied by 
  > >>> > > the
  > >>> > > sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a radio button$,1rys sound
  > >>> > > varies depending its selection state.
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > Visit this link to download the application:
  > >>> > > 
http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip
  > >>> > > The executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > Please have patience with it. This is only a beta version of the
  > >>> > > program. Also, the interface is very different and takes some 
  > >>> > > getting
  > >>> > > used to.
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > i hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the
  > >>> > > navigation keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict. As 
  > >>> > > before,
  > >>> > > the navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent 
  > >>> > > nodes
  > >>> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes
  > >>> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more details 
of 
  > >>> > > an
  > >>> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, pressing
  > >>> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, 
  > >>> > > revealing a
  > >>> > > "bigger picture".
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > Unfortunately, this program is still far from the screen reader i
  > >>> > > envision. This is just a self-voicing application, and the objects 
  > >>> > > do
  > >>> > > not correspond to actual objects on the screen, so it probably lacks
  > >>> > > much of the functionality to which you may be accustomed. But i 
  > >>> > > feel
  > >>> > > like i$,1rym slowly getting closer.
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > Hope you enjoy it,
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > dusty.......
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > >
  > >>> > > _________________________________________________________________
  > >>> > > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger 
  > >>> > > Caf,Ai.
  > >>> > > Stop by today.
  > >>> > > 
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline<html>
  > >>> > > <head>
  > >>> > > <style>
  > >>> > > .hmmessage P
  > >>> > > {
  > >>> > > margin:0px;
  > >>> > > padding:0px
  > >>> > > }
  > >>> > > body.hmmessage
  > >>> > > {
  > >>> > > FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
  > >>> > > FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
  > >>> > > }
  > >>> > > </style>
  > >>> > > </head>
  > >>> > > <body class='hmmessage'>
  > >>> > > Hi everybody,<br><br>i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web
  > >>> > > page editor that i$,1rym starting and give some
  > >>> > > feedback.<br><br>i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this
  > >>> > > program that i hope will allow blind users to easily create 
  > >>> > > content-rich
  > >>> > > Web pages.&nbsp; i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical
  > >>> > > expression editor.&nbsp; And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the
  > >>> > > other surprises i$,1ryve added.<br><br>This application also
  > >>> > > introduces a new concept for quickly differentiating between 
  > >>> > > controls in
  > >>> > > the editor$,1rys interface. In applications designed for sighted
  > >>> > > users, components are visually distinct: buttons appear raised, text
  > >>> > > boxes appear inset, and each item differs in some way that suggests 
  > >>> > > its
  > >>> > > intended function. Page Designer achieves this effect auditorily. 
  > >>> > > The
  > >>> > > application plays programmatic sounds in parallel with voice output 
  > >>> > > to
  > >>> > > quickly identify both an object$,1rys type and its value. So rather
  > >>> > > than speaking "OK button", the editor speaks "OK" and plays a 
  > >>> > > popping
  > >>> > > sound at the same moment, effectively saving half the number of
  > >>> > > syllables. Textboxes are associated with a tapping sound; picture 
  > >>> > > boxes
  > >>> > > are accompanied by the sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a 
  > >>> > > radio
  > >>> > > button$,1rys sound varies depending its selection 
  > >>> > > state.<br><br>Visit
  > >>> > > this link to download the application:&nbsp;
  > >>> > > 
http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip<br>The
  > >>> > > executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.<br><br>Please have 
  > >>> > > patience
  > >>> > > with it.&nbsp; This is only a beta version of the program.&nbsp; 
  > >>> > > Also,
  > >>> > > the interface is very different and takes some getting used 
  > >>> > > to.<br><br>i
  > >>> > > hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the 
  > >>> > > navigation
  > >>> > > keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict.&nbsp; As before, 
  > >>> > > the
  > >>> > > navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent nodes
  > >>> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes
  > >>> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more details 
of 
  > >>> > > an
  > >>> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, pressing
  > >>> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, 
  > >>> > > revealing a
  > >>> > > "bigger picture".<br><br>Unfortunately, this program is still far 
  > >>> > > from
  > >>> > > the screen reader i envision.&nbsp; This is just a self-voicing
  > >>> > > application, and the objects do not correspond to actual objects on 
  > >>> > > the
  > >>> > > screen, so it probably lacks much of the functionality to which you 
  > >>> > > may
  > >>> > > be accustomed.&nbsp; But i feel like i$,1rym slowly getting
  > >>> > > closer.<br><br>Hope you enjoy it,<br><br>dusty.......<br><br><br 
  > >>> > > /><hr
  > >>> > > />Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger
  > >>> > > Caf,Ai. <a
  > >>> > > 
href='http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline'
  > >>> > > target='_new'>Stop by today!</a></body>
  > >>> > > </html>
  > >>> > -- 
  > >>> > Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is:
  > >>> > How do
  > >>> > you spend it?
  > >>> >
  > >>> > John Covici
  > >>> > covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'カ翰学ョf渇旛jxハ恭・xjリカ淌 ュ迥ヒ「ク・嘯カ・nX
  > >>> __________
  > >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
  > >>> http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
  > >>>
  > >>
  > >> _________________________________________________________________
  > >> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
  > >> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
  > >
  > > __________
  > > View the list's information and change your settings at 
  > > http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
  > >
  > > 
  > 
  > __________
  > View the list's information and change your settings at 
  > http://www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
  > 


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