Ok, thank you for that link. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: dusty bray To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 9:19 PM Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind Well i probably shouldn't open this can of worms, but i'm making a subtle statement by using Math ML in my application. i think that things should be done the right way the first time. So many different types of content can be embeded into Web pages, but we still haven't adopted a standard way of representing mathematics simply because sighted users would rather just use graphics. The only other popular alternative is an ad hoc ASCII system for representing mathematics-- and i see mathematics as an absolute essential in communication. i see this as not only the right step for the blind, but for communication in general. In my opinion, the blind community should be the first to make a stand because sighted users just aren't going to get it. So in the mean time, you could install a plug-in if you're using Internet Explorer: http://www.dessci.com/en/products/mathplayer/download.htm?src=mplogo Math Player displays mathematics very, very nicely for sighted users and also reads it very well for blind users. You can also use my browser / screen reader to traverse mathematical expressions, but i'll admit this version isn't really very usable yet. The other alternative is to use a standards compliant browser, like Fire Fox, until Microsoft gets with the program. dusty....... > From: orasnita@xxxxxxxxx > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:42:18 +0300 > > I think that the time needed for hearing "button" is not longer than the > time needed to hear a beep, but it is more clear what it refers to than a > beep. > > The comparison with how the sighted associated those form elements is not > valid in my opinion. Why? > > A sighted person can associate a raised form button with a real button > because a real button is usually raised. But a blind person cannot naturally > associate a real button with a certain beep, because the buttons usually > don't beep, but if they will hear that element is a "button", it would be > very clear. > > I've seen you've used MathML in your html document, but can you tell us how > can we read those math formulas? Internet Explorer doesn't read them right > for sure. > > Octavian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:50 AM > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind > > > > This method of generating audio icons is interesting. It does appear to > > hold the potential of speeding up computing, but it might have a steep > > learning curve as the new user will have to take lots of time out to learn > > the sounds then create the mental associations with the sound and the > > intended action. In other words, there is a possibility of new users > > giving up on it as they might deem it much more difficult to use than the > > more common methods of computing. That is, it will be easier for them to > > know what to do with an audio message telling them "Ok," than an audio > > message telling them "beep beep." Now that I think of it, if you attach > > piano sounds to the audio-icons you might end up composing quite a musical > > piece and not even know it. > > > > Then again there is the noise factor as all these strange sounds might > > annoy or at the very least distract others in the vicinity. > > > > I do believe that your audio-icons do have great potential in that they > > can be of great use to power users that only need that tiny hint of > > reassurance they're moving along and clicking what they intend to click. > > > > "Oh wait," I just thought of something, doesn't this type of computing > > already exist to some extent within the Jaws speech and sounds manager? > > > > Regardless, I would continue exploring this interaction channel as it > > might ultimately yield lots of efficiency for the proficient blind > > computer user. > > > > Thanks, > > Matthew > > ---- Original Message ----- > > From: "dusty bray" <dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx> > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:19 PM > > Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind > > > > > >> > >> Yeah, you're definitely right, inthane-- it should have an option to turn > >> off the sounds, but this version is severely lacking in many, many ways > >> right now. i just wanted to give everyone an idea of how this system > >> works. > >> > >> And honestly, i think if i gave that option initially, then everyone > >> would just turn it off and not actually try to make it work smile. i > >> anticipate this being somewhat of a learning curve because the user has > >> to build mental connections between a sound and its meaning. In the same > >> way, users had difficulty transitioning from command line to Windows > >> based operating systems because the graphical symbols were totally > >> unfamiliar at first. But today, there exists a universally recognized > >> set of graphics for identifying objects, and these graphics allow sighted > >> users to work more efficiently now. i see an opportunity to use > >> background noises for the same purpose. You could fit a lot of useful > >> information in that empty space. > >> > >> Of course, Windows has already tried to incorporate sounds into the > >> interface, but these sounds were used very inappropriately. Instead of > >> associating objects with sounds, they associated actions with sounds, > >> which gives information after the fact. So even as i use this new > >> system, i'm having to consciously reprogram myself not to think of these > >> sounds as actions but as markers for object types. > >> > >> But i do want to know if people find this particular set of sounds > >> overbearing. Should i adjust the volumes? Can you hear the voice > >> clearly over the sounds? > >> > >> Also, did you ever recieve my original message?? That's really strange. > >> It's still programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, right? > >> > >> Ok, well definitely give me your oppinion if you get a chance to use the > >> software. Thanks, > >> > >> dusty....... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> From: inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > >>> Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind > >>> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:23:42 -0700 > >>> > >>> interesting, I got your reply to Dusty's message, but haven't received > >>> the > >>> original even yet, hmmmmm! > >>> > >>> I haven't tried your ap yet Dusty, but it would be nice if you could > >>> reverse > >>> things, in other words, turn off the added sounds, and return it to full > >>> speaking of the items, since I don't do well with sounds, maybe a check > >>> box > >>> in an options menu/dialog for changing it, giving the user the choice? > >>> > >>> regards, > >>> inthane > >>> ? For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and > >>> Links > >>> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: > >>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com > >>> ? to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming > >>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: > >>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "John covici" <covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:49 PM > >>> Subject: Web Page Editor for the Blind > >>> > >>> > >>> >I wonder if it would work with hardware speech at all since the speech > >>> > and the sound may get out of sync? Ever test this? > >>> > > >>> > on Wednesday 10/10/2007 dusty bray(dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx) wrote > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi everybody, > >>> > > > >>> > > i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web page editor that > >>> > > i$,1rym starting and give some feedback. > >>> > > > >>> > > i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this program that i > >>> > > hope > >>> > > will allow blind users to easily create content-rich Web pages. > >>> > > i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical expression > >>> > > editor. > >>> > > And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the other surprises i$,1ryve > >>> > > added. > >>> > > > >>> > > This application also introduces a new concept for quickly > >>> > > differentiating between controls in the editor$,1rys interface. In > >>> > > applications designed for sighted users, components are visually > >>> > > distinct: buttons appear raised, text boxes appear inset, and each > >>> > > item > >>> > > differs in some way that suggests its intended function. Page > >>> > > Designer > >>> > > achieves this effect auditorily. The application plays programmatic > >>> > > sounds in parallel with voice output to quickly identify both an > >>> > > object$,1rys type and its value. So rather than speaking "OK > >>> > > button", > >>> > > the editor speaks "OK" and plays a popping sound at the same moment, > >>> > > effectively saving half the number of syllables. Textboxes are > >>> > > associated with a tapping sound; picture boxes are accompanied by > >>> > > the > >>> > > sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a radio button$,1rys sound > >>> > > varies depending its selection state. > >>> > > > >>> > > Visit this link to download the application: > >>> > > http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip > >>> > > The executable is named here-i-am_page-designer. > >>> > > > >>> > > Please have patience with it. This is only a beta version of the > >>> > > program. Also, the interface is very different and takes some > >>> > > getting > >>> > > used to. > >>> > > > >>> > > i hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the > >>> > > navigation keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict. As > >>> > > before, > >>> > > the navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent > >>> > > nodes > >>> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes > >>> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more details of > >>> > > an > >>> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, pressing > >>> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, > >>> > > revealing a > >>> > > "bigger picture". > >>> > > > >>> > > Unfortunately, this program is still far from the screen reader i > >>> > > envision. This is just a self-voicing application, and the objects > >>> > > do > >>> > > not correspond to actual objects on the screen, so it probably lacks > >>> > > much of the functionality to which you may be accustomed. But i > >>> > > feel > >>> > > like i$,1rym slowly getting closer. > >>> > > > >>> > > Hope you enjoy it, > >>> > > > >>> > > dusty....... > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > >>> > > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger > >>> > > Caf,Ai. > >>> > > Stop by today. > >>> > > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline<html> > >>> > > <head> > >>> > > <style> > >>> > > .hmmessage P > >>> > > { > >>> > > margin:0px; > >>> > > padding:0px > >>> > > } > >>> > > body.hmmessage > >>> > > { > >>> > > FONT-SIZE: 10pt; > >>> > > FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma > >>> > > } > >>> > > </style> > >>> > > </head> > >>> > > <body class='hmmessage'> > >>> > > Hi everybody,<br><br>i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web > >>> > > page editor that i$,1rym starting and give some > >>> > > feedback.<br><br>i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this > >>> > > program that i hope will allow blind users to easily create > >>> > > content-rich > >>> > > Web pages. i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical > >>> > > expression editor. And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the > >>> > > other surprises i$,1ryve added.<br><br>This application also > >>> > > introduces a new concept for quickly differentiating between > >>> > > controls in > >>> > > the editor$,1rys interface. In applications designed for sighted > >>> > > users, components are visually distinct: buttons appear raised, text > >>> > > boxes appear inset, and each item differs in some way that suggests > >>> > > its > >>> > > intended function. Page Designer achieves this effect auditorily. > >>> > > The > >>> > > application plays programmatic sounds in parallel with voice output > >>> > > to > >>> > > quickly identify both an object$,1rys type and its value. So rather > >>> > > than speaking "OK button", the editor speaks "OK" and plays a > >>> > > popping > >>> > > sound at the same moment, effectively saving half the number of > >>> > > syllables. Textboxes are associated with a tapping sound; picture > >>> > > boxes > >>> > > are accompanied by the sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a > >>> > > radio > >>> > > button$,1rys sound varies depending its selection > >>> > > state.<br><br>Visit > >>> > > this link to download the application: > >>> > > http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip<br>The > >>> > > executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.<br><br>Please have > >>> > > patience > >>> > > with it. This is only a beta version of the program. > >>> > > Also, > >>> > > the interface is very different and takes some getting used > >>> > > to.<br><br>i > >>> > > hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the > >>> > > navigation > >>> > > keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict. As before, > >>> > > the > >>> > > navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent nodes > >>> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes > >>> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more details of > >>> > > an > >>> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, pressing > >>> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, > >>> > > revealing a > >>> > > "bigger picture".<br><br>Unfortunately, this program is still far > >>> > > from > >>> > > the screen reader i envision. This is just a self-voicing > >>> > > application, and the objects do not correspond to actual objects on > >>> > > the > >>> > > screen, so it probably lacks much of the functionality to which you > >>> > > may > >>> > > be accustomed. But i feel like i$,1rym slowly getting > >>> > > closer.<br><br>Hope you enjoy it,<br><br>dusty.......<br><br><br > >>> > > /><hr > >>> > > />Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger > >>> > > Caf,Ai. <a > >>> > > href='http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline' > >>> > > target='_new'>Stop by today!</a></body> > >>> > > </html> > >>> > -- > >>> > Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: > >>> > How do > >>> > you spend it? > >>> > > >>> > John Covici > >>> > covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'カ翰学ョf渇旛jxハ恭・xjリカ淌 ュ迥ヒ「ク・嘯カ・nX > >>> __________ > >>> View the list's information and change your settings at > >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > >>> > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! > >> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > > > > __________ > > View the list's information and change your settings at > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > > > > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! Get 'em!