Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
- From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:43:54 -0500
About twice in my 35 years I have run into an attitude like yours, it does very
occasionally happen. I do understand your point of view though, to discover
that there are hundreds of more successful people on this list alone than
yourself and that you are not the centre of any universe than your own must be
difficult. After all,applying the same measure to yourself makes you
unacceptable on the basis of your impairment. Why would anyone trust you as a
blind person?
Your personal insecurities though are just that, very personally yours. Now you
have shared them with us all. While that is very sad this list isn't the most
appropriate place to exorcise personality inadequacies.
I am perhaps more fortunate than you insofar as people are free to seek my
services out, be they patients for direct care or colleagues for mentoring or
physicians for consultation. They probably do it out of charity, I know I would.
This isn't about you and me though Matthew. It is about someone who happens to
be blind who has been recognized for a standard of excellence regardless of
what you think. Actually your position in the matter is totally insignificant.
you are irrelevant to it what ever you think.
I do hope that the rest of the list subscribers including myself have the
generosity to be happy for you if ever you achieve some special recognition.
It is all very well to have a giggle winding up the list albeit remarkably
immature. Time now to be a good little boy and drop it.
Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
DLeavens@xxxxxxx
Skype DaleLeavens
Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
> In your own opinion you're good. What objective measures or assessments can
> you show for your claims? My point is that you are making the same mistake
> as those who claim blind people can make websites as good as sighted people.
> They are basing their arguments on personal anecdotal experience. I'm sorry
> but if I walked into a medical center and discovered that the person helping
> my elderly parent learn to control her Parkinson's related movement disorder
> is a blind person, I'm going somewhere else. I want someone who will be able
> to make an educated comprehensive assessment based on their own assessment
> of the situation and not have to go through someone else to convey to them
> the patient's physical movements.
>
> Matthew
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
> This entire thread is ridiculous. Loads of sighted people can't design a
> decent Web site. Just when did it become necessary for each and every blind
> person to perform above the standard of the best sighted designer or
> anything else for that matter. That is a pretty high standard and just below
> God.
>
> Loads of blind programmers and Web authors can out design and out code many
> thousands maybe millions of Web pages out there. Why isn't that enough? If
> one excels for any reason at any level let us celebrate that.
>
> I am a Physiotherapist. I am darn good at rehabilitating acquired brain
> injuries, I suck at respiratory conditions and don't much care. This does
> not negate my value. Admittedly I haven't won any awards either.
>
> Congratulations and thank you to the extent I, as a blind person can benefit
> from any reflected glory.
>
> Now can we possibly return to the regularly scheduled programme?
> Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
> DLeavens@xxxxxxx
> Skype DaleLeavens
> Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Léonie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:14 PM
> Subject: RE: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
> Matthew,
>
> You seem to be suggesting that a VI person can't succeed, or rise to
> eminence in their field, in a sighted world. I sincerely hope that you're
> suggesting nothing of the kind, but perhaps you'd be good enough to clarify
> your scepticism?
>
>
> Regards,
> Léonie.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew2007
> Sent: 29 November 2007 16:30
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
> In an effort to take your anecdotal post and bring it to life, name these
> people. I want to try to find them and research the particulars of their
> situations. After all, there is a nice big picture from 2003 of that moron
> in the white house standing on a freight carrier next to a sign stating
> "victory." We all know what this picture leads us to believe, but the truth
> is very different.
>
> Matthew
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:45 AM
> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>> *taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,
>>
>> *reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*
>>
>> teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the NFL by
>> being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even with the
>> average players despite his having only half of his right foot...
>>
>> one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being just
>> better than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of the law,
>> nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted average skiers,
>> despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double amputee...
>>
>> one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by only
>> fencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing only with
>> those who are blind, even if one is blind themselves...
>>
>> these are the types of people I am talking about, they are masters of
>> there fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who don't or
>> haven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct disadvantages
>> that makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and force the
>> world to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do what is
>> required to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there field, no
>> matter what...
>>
>> quit with the f... reeking you can't, because if one of us wishes to put
>> forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote!
>>
>> inthane
>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me
>> at:
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>
>>
>>> Oh yes that could be true. There are sighted persons that don't even know
>
>>> how to use a computer. So we can say that we as web designers are better
>>> at web design than them. But who cares that we can be better than those
>>> sighted that don't know too many things?
>>> We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted web
>>> designer.... at least.
>>> But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to create
>>> images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will care that
>>> he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web pages,
>>> or that his pages won't be W3C compliant.
>>>
>>> If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html validator, it
>
>>> will tell you:
>>>
>>> Failed validation, 30 Errors
>>>
>>> So... of course W3C's validator is not important at all, because Google's
>
>>> page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design.... better said
>>> almost without any design.
>>>
>>>
>>> Octavian
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>
>>>
>>>> teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my
>>>> previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a habit of
>>>> overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I don't
>>>> decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down...
>>>>
>>>> I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have mastered
>
>>>> areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as well or
>>>> better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans
>>>>
>>>> laters,
>>>> inthane
>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit
>>>> me at:
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
>
>>>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't even show
>>>>> us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come one
>>>>> after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe the first
>
>>>>> is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text
>>>>> written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll slowly up
>>>>> or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes, there
>>>>> are handicapped people without a leg that participate in different
>>>>> sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they will
>>>>> never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he is.
>>>>>
>>>>> And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also
>>>>> important. What we can do would have a very low value if we would be
>>>>> able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Octavian
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since we live
>
>>>>>> in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going to
>>>>>> need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no experience
>>>>>> in the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an
>>>>>> advantage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's the
>>>>>> majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing with
>>>>>> it, use the standards and templates when and where you can, and do
>>>>>> your best to adapt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that has
>>>>>> never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in his
>>>>>> life,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself often
>>>>>> trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had site.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep
>>>>>> yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible cursor and
>>>>>> go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such as,
>>>>>> the that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents us
>>>>>> with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille,
>>>>>> including the navigation links which run from left to right across the
>
>>>>>> page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> take care, and good luck,
>>>>>> inthane
>>>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and
>>>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit
>
>>>>>> me at:
>>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
>>>>>> programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>>>> Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it ...
>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>> standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... I can
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, because I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly that
>>>>>>> the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
>>>>>>> listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
>>>>>>> naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was in
>>>>>>> the right!!!!
>>>>>>> Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen
>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>> use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat
>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>> sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like this.
>>>>>>> I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and
>>>>>>> putting
>>>>>>> * them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would happen
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
>>>>>>> browsers would react to it without testing is something very
>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>> If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look and
>>>>>>> feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based on
>>>>>>> the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only thing I
>>>>>>> can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
>>>>>>> specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying to build
>>>>>>> something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't imagine
>>>>>>> very well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own work,
>>>>>>> which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of ...
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they will
>>>>>>> feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
>>>>>>> something which has not a visual result as its goal ... which should
>>>>>>> be perfectly logical.
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Marlon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>> Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, if you
>>>>>>>> all will
>>>>>>>> forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention hard
>>>>>>>> work and
>>>>>>>> determination, and the willingness to try. Cheers!
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Hi All,
>>>>>>>> > Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won a
>
>>>>>>>> > very
>>>>>>>> > prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web
>>>>>>>> > application.
>>>>>>>> > Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site
>>>>>>>> > using HTML,
>>>>>>>> > CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and the
>
>>>>>>>> > sighted
>>>>>>>> > people in the company rave about it.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind
>>>>>>>> > cannot
>>>>>>>> > design Web interfaces well to keep on trying. You can do it.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Jim
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>>>>>>>> > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can
>>>>>>>> > change the
>>>>>>>> > world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
>>>>>>>> > Mead
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > __________
>>>>>>>> > View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just
>>>>>>> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for
>>>>>>> free."
>>>>>>> Linus Torvalds
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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