Yes I totally agree somethings are not possible. But many things are.
Rick
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Parks" <mehgcap@xxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
I agree, Rick. Some things are not going to happen for blind
people--if I get on a plane and the pilot is blind, I am most
certainly getting right back off. However, I know many blind
people who are very successful at whatever they do, from running
a vending machine business to hiking the Apalation (sorry for the
spelling) Trail. I am blind and want a degree in computer
science so I can work for HW or a similar company. Just because
someone cannot see means nothing, especially in this age of such
powerful and "smart" technology. As I said, some things are out
of the reach of people with no sight but in 50 years.. Who
knows? Since this is supposed to be a list about programming,
though, can we please get it back on track and not have 20+
messages a day on this topic?
Have a great day,
Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harmon" <rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:04:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
Matthew,
It seems as if you aren't willing to give someone qualified to do
their job
a chance if they are blind? I hope this isn't so since you are
blind
yourself. I'd hate to see someone discriminate against you soely
because of
your being blind. I know I don't want to be discriminated
against soley
because of my being blind. I'm not sure if your just trying to
prove a
point or your really meaning what you've said in your posts. You
said you
wouldn't have a blind lawyer and now a blind doctor either.
Please explain.
If someone is qualified to do their job then it's simply not fair
to say you
wouldn't allow them to do their job for you based on the fact
they are
blind.
Thanks,
Rick
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
In your own opinion you're good. What objective measures or
assessments can
you show for your claims? My point is that you are making the
same mistake
as those who claim blind people can make websites as good as
sighted people.
They are basing their arguments on personal anecdotal experience.
I'm sorry
but if I walked into a medical center and discovered that the
person helping
my elderly parent learn to control her Parkinson's related
movement disorder
is a blind person, I'm going somewhere else. I want someone who
will be able
to make an educated comprehensive assessment based on their own
assessment
of the situation and not have to go through someone else to
convey to them
the patient's physical movements.
Matthew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
This entire thread is ridiculous. Loads of sighted people can't
design a
decent Web site. Just when did it become necessary for each and
every blind
person to perform above the standard of the best sighted designer
or
anything else for that matter. That is a pretty high standard
and just below
God.
Loads of blind programmers and Web authors can out design and out
code many
thousands maybe millions of Web pages out there. Why isn't that
enough? If
one excels for any reason at any level let us celebrate that.
I am a Physiotherapist. I am darn good at rehabilitating
acquired brain
injuries, I suck at respiratory conditions and don't much care.
This does
not negate my value. Admittedly I haven't won any awards either.
Congratulations and thank you to the extent I, as a blind person
can benefit
from any reflected glory.
Now can we possibly return to the regularly scheduled programme?
Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
DLeavens@xxxxxxx
Skype DaleLeavens
Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear
habitat.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Léonie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Team Excellence Award Winner
Matthew,
You seem to be suggesting that a VI person can't succeed, or rise
to
eminence in their field, in a sighted world. I sincerely hope
that you're
suggesting nothing of the kind, but perhaps you'd be good enough
to clarify
your scepticism?
Regards,
Léonie.
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Matthew2007
Sent: 29 November 2007 16:30
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
In an effort to take your anecdotal post and bring it to life,
name these
people. I want to try to find them and research the particulars
of their
situations. After all, there is a nice big picture from 2003 of
that moron
in the white house standing on a freight carrier next to a sign
stating
"victory." We all know what this picture leads us to believe, but
the truth
is very different.
Matthew
---- Original Message -----
From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
*taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,
*reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*
teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the
NFL by
being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even
with the
average players despite his having only half of his right
foot...
one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being
just
better than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of
the law,
nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted average
skiers,
despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double
amputee...
one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by
only
fencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing
only with
those who are blind, even if one is blind themselves..
these are the types of people I am talking about, they are
masters of
there fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who
don't or
haven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct
disadvantages
that makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and
force the
world to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do
what is
required to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there
field, no
matter what...
quit with the f... reeking you can't, because if one of us
wishes to put
forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote!
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit me
at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
Oh yes that could be true. There are sighted persons that don't
even know
how to use a computer. So we can say that we as web designers
are better
at web design than them. But who cares that we can be better
than those
sighted that don't know too many things?
We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted
web
designer.... at least.
But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to
create
images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will
care that
he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web
pages,
or that his pages won't be W3C compliant.
If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html
validator, it
will tell you:
Failed validation, 30 Errors
So... of course W3C's validator is not important at all,
because Google's
page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design....
better said
almost without any design.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my
previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a
habit of
overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I
don't
decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down..
I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have
mastered
areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as
well or
better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans
laters,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit
me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't
even show
us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come
one
after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe
the first
is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text
written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll
slowly up
or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.
I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes,
there
are handicapped people without a leg that participate in
different
sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they
will
never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he
is.
And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also
important. What we can do would have a very low value if we
would be
able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since
we live
in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going
to
need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no
experience
in the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an
advantage.
but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's
the
majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing
with
it, use the standards and templates when and where you can, and
do
your best to adapt.
the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that
has
never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in
his
life,
its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself
often
trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had
site.
one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep
yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible
cursor and
go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such
as,
the that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents
us
with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille,
including the navigation links which run from left to right
across the
page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us.
take care, and good luck,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit
me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
Hello folks,
Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it
..
visual
standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... I
can
not
plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, because
I
don't
know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly
that
the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was
in
the right!!!!
Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen
readers
use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat
exactly
sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like
this.
I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and
putting
* them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would
happen
if
one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
browsers would react to it without testing is something very
different.
If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look
and
feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based
on
the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only
thing I
can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying to
build
something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't
imagine
very well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own
work,
which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of
..
now
the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they
will
feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
something which has not a visual result as its goal ... which
should
be perfectly logical.
Thanks
Marlon
2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, if
you
all will
forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention
hard
work and
determination, and the willingness to try. Cheers!
----- Original Message -----
From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner
Hi All,
Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won
a
very
prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web
application.
Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site
using HTML,
CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and
the
sighted
people in the company rave about it.
I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind
cannot
design Web interfaces well to keep on trying. You can do it.
Jim
James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
"Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can
change the
world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
Mead
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