Re: Team Excellence Award Winner

  • From: "Rick Harmon" <rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:33:04 -0500

Yes I totally agree somethings are not possible.  But many things are.

Rick


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alex Parks" <mehgcap@xxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


I agree, Rick.  Some things are not going to happen for blind
people--if I get on a plane and the pilot is blind, I am most
certainly getting right back off.  However, I know many blind
people who are very successful at whatever they do, from running
a vending machine business to hiking the Apalation (sorry for the
spelling) Trail.  I am blind and want a degree in computer
science so I can work for HW or a similar company.  Just because
someone cannot see means nothing, especially in this age of such
powerful and "smart" technology.  As I said, some things are out
of the reach of people with no sight but in 50 years..  Who
knows? Since this is supposed to be a list about programming,
though, can we please get it back on track and not have 20+
messages a day on this topic?

Have a great day,
Alex

> ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rick Harmon" <rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:04:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner

>Matthew,

>It seems as if you aren't willing to give someone qualified to do
their job
>a chance if they are blind?  I hope this isn't so since you are
blind
>yourself.  I'd hate to see someone discriminate against you soely
because of
>your being blind.  I know I don't want to be discriminated
against soley
>because of my being blind.  I'm not sure if your just trying to
prove a
>point or your really meaning what you've said in your posts.  You
said you
>wouldn't have a blind lawyer and now a blind doctor either.
Please explain.

>If someone is qualified to do their job then it's simply not fair
to say you
>wouldn't allow them to do their job for you based on the fact
they are
>blind.

>Thanks,

>Rick


>--
>Visit my webpage and podcast feed at:
>http://www.blind-geek-zone.net
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:52 PM
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


>In your own opinion you're good.  What objective measures or
assessments can
>you show for your claims? My point is that you are making the
same mistake
>as those who claim blind people can make websites as good as
sighted people.
>They are basing their arguments on personal anecdotal experience.
I'm sorry
>but if I walked into a medical center and discovered that the
person helping
>my elderly parent learn to control her Parkinson's related
movement disorder
>is a blind person, I'm going somewhere else.  I want someone who
will be able
>to make an educated comprehensive assessment based on their own
assessment
>of the situation and not have to go through someone else to
convey to them
>the patient's physical movements.

>Matthew
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 PM
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


>This entire thread is ridiculous.  Loads of sighted people can't
design a
>decent Web site.  Just when did it become necessary for each and
every blind
>person to perform above the standard of the best sighted designer
or
>anything else for that matter.  That is a pretty high standard
and just below
>God.

>Loads of blind programmers and Web authors can out design and out
code many
>thousands maybe millions of Web pages out there.  Why isn't that
enough? If
>one excels for any reason at any level let us celebrate that.

>I am a Physiotherapist.  I am darn good at rehabilitating
acquired brain
>injuries, I suck at respiratory conditions and don't much care.
This does
>not negate my value.  Admittedly I haven't won any awards either.

>Congratulations and thank you to the extent I, as a blind person
can benefit
>from any reflected glory.

>Now can we possibly return to the regularly scheduled programme?
>Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
>DLeavens@xxxxxxx
>Skype DaleLeavens
>Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear
habitat.


>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Léonie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:14 PM
>Subject: RE: Team Excellence Award Winner


>Matthew,

>You seem to be suggesting that a VI person can't succeed, or rise
to
>eminence in their field, in a sighted world.  I sincerely hope
that you're
>suggesting nothing of the kind, but perhaps you'd be good enough
to clarify
>your scepticism?


> Regards,
>Léonie.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Matthew2007
>Sent: 29 November 2007 16:30
>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner

>In an effort to take your anecdotal post and bring it to life,
name these
>people.  I want to try to find them and research the particulars
of their
>situations.  After all, there is a nice big picture from 2003 of
that moron
>in the white house standing on a freight carrier next to a sign
stating
>"victory." We all know what this picture leads us to believe, but
the truth
>is very different.

>Matthew
>---- Original Message -----
>From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:45 AM
>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


>> *taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,

>> *reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*

>> teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the
NFL by
>> being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even
with the
>> average players despite his having only half of his right
foot...

>> one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being
just
>> better than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of
the law,
>> nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted average
skiers,
>> despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double
amputee...

>> one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by
only
>> fencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing
only with
>> those who are blind, even if one is blind themselves..

>> these are the types of people I am talking about, they are
masters of
>> there fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who
don't or
>> haven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct
disadvantages
>> that makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and
force the
>> world to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do
what is
>> required to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there
field, no
>> matter what...

>> quit with the f...  reeking you can't, because if one of us
wishes to put
>> forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote!

>> inthane
>> .  For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit me
>> at:
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>> .  to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming
>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


>>> Oh yes that could be true.  There are sighted persons that don't
even know

>>> how to use a computer.  So we can say that we as web designers
are better
>>> at web design than them.  But who cares that we can be better
than those
>>> sighted that don't know too many things?
>>> We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted
web
>>> designer....  at least.
>>> But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to
create
>>> images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will
care that
>>> he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web
pages,
>>> or that his pages won't be W3C compliant.

>>> If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html
validator, it

>>> will tell you:

>>> Failed validation, 30 Errors

>>> So...  of course W3C's validator is not important at all,
because Google's

>>> page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design....
better said
>>> almost without any design.


>>> Octavian

>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


>>>> teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my
>>>> previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a
habit of
>>>> overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I
don't
>>>> decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down..

>>>> I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have
mastered

>>>> areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as
well or
>>>> better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans

>>>> laters,
>>>> inthane
>>>> .  For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit
>>>> me at:
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> .  to be able to view a simple programming project in several
programming

>>>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


>>>>> Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't
even show
>>>>> us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come
one
>>>>> after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe
the first

>>>>> is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text
>>>>> written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll
slowly up
>>>>> or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.

>>>>> I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be.  Oh yes,
there
>>>>> are handicapped people without a leg that participate in
different
>>>>> sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they
will
>>>>> never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he
is.

>>>>> And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also
>>>>> important.  What we can do would have a very low value if we
would be
>>>>> able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.

>>>>> Octavian

>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


>>>>>> which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since
we live

>>>>>> in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going
to
>>>>>> need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no
experience
>>>>>> in the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an
>>>>>> advantage.

>>>>>> but...  you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's
the
>>>>>> majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing
with
>>>>>> it, use the standards and templates  when and where you can, and
do
>>>>>> your best to adapt.

>>>>>> the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that
has
>>>>>> never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in
his
>>>>>> life,

>>>>>> its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself
often
>>>>>> trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had
site.

>>>>>> one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep
>>>>>> yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible
cursor and
>>>>>> go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such
as,
>>>>>> the  that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents
us
>>>>>> with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille,
>>>>>> including the navigation links which run from left to right
across the

>>>>>> page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us.

>>>>>> take care, and good luck,
>>>>>> inthane
>>>>>> .  For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
Programs, and
>>>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
visit

>>>>>> me at:
>>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>> .  to be able to view a simple programming project in several
>>>>>> programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner


>>>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>>>> Well I have never seen ...  so I have no a ...  let's call it
..
>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>> standards so, although I can technically do it very well ...  I
can
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> plan, like imagine, build ...  a nice visual interface, because
I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> know what it is expected.  A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly
that
>>>>>>> the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
>>>>>>> listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
>>>>>>> naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was
in
>>>>>>> the right!!!!
>>>>>>> Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen
>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>> use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat
>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>> sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like
this.
>>>>>>> I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and
>>>>>>> putting
>>>>>>> * them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would
happen
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
>>>>>>> browsers would react to it without testing is something very
>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>> If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look
and
>>>>>>> feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based
on
>>>>>>> the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only
thing I
>>>>>>> can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
>>>>>>> specifications.  And even then I will spend eforts trying to
build
>>>>>>> something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't
imagine
>>>>>>> very well ...  and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own
work,
>>>>>>> which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of
..
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they
will
>>>>>>> feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
>>>>>>> something which has not a visual result as its goal ...  which
should
>>>>>>> be perfectly logical.
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Marlon

>>>>>>> 2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>> Hi Jim.  Excellent news.  Congrats Jeff.  Just shows what, if
you
>>>>>>>> all will
>>>>>>>> forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention
hard
>>>>>>>> work and
>>>>>>>> determination, and the willingness to try.  Cheers!
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner



>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>> Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won
a

>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>> prestigious award.  The team developed a highly visible web
>>>>>>>>> application.
>>>>>>>>> Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site
>>>>>>>>> using HTML,
>>>>>>>>> CSS and Javascript.  He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and
the

>>>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>>> people in the company rave about it.

>>>>>>>>> I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind
>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>> design Web interfaces well to keep on trying.  You can do it.

>>>>>>>>> Jim

>>>>>>>>> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>>>>>>>>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810

>>>>>>>>> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can
>>>>>>>>> change the
>>>>>>>>> world.  Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
>>>>>>>>> Mead

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>>>>>>> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people
just
>>>>>>> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system,
for
>>>>>>> free."
>>>>>>> Linus Torvalds
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