Yes I totally agree somethings are not possible. But many things are. Rick -- Visit my webpage and podcast feed at: http://www.blind-geek-zone.net and my web Blog at: http://blind-geek-zone.blogspot.com/ Join the BGZ mailing list by sending a blank email message to: blind_geek_zone-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put subscribe in the subject line. Contact info: Email - rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx & rharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Skype - rharmon928 MSN - rharmon928@xxxxxxxxxxx ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Parks" <mehgcap@xxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner I agree, Rick. Some things are not going to happen for blind people--if I get on a plane and the pilot is blind, I am most certainly getting right back off. However, I know many blind people who are very successful at whatever they do, from running a vending machine business to hiking the Apalation (sorry for the spelling) Trail. I am blind and want a degree in computer science so I can work for HW or a similar company. Just because someone cannot see means nothing, especially in this age of such powerful and "smart" technology. As I said, some things are out of the reach of people with no sight but in 50 years.. Who knows? Since this is supposed to be a list about programming, though, can we please get it back on track and not have 20+ messages a day on this topic? Have a great day, Alex > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Rick Harmon" <rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:04:45 -0500 >Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >Matthew, >It seems as if you aren't willing to give someone qualified to do their job >a chance if they are blind? I hope this isn't so since you are blind >yourself. I'd hate to see someone discriminate against you soely because of >your being blind. I know I don't want to be discriminated against soley >because of my being blind. I'm not sure if your just trying to prove a >point or your really meaning what you've said in your posts. You said you >wouldn't have a blind lawyer and now a blind doctor either. Please explain. >If someone is qualified to do their job then it's simply not fair to say you >wouldn't allow them to do their job for you based on the fact they are >blind. >Thanks, >Rick >-- >Visit my webpage and podcast feed at: >http://www.blind-geek-zone.net >and my web Blog at: >http://blind-geek-zone.blogspot.com/ >Join the BGZ mailing list by sending a blank email message to: >blind_geek_zone-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > and put subscribe in the subject line. >Contact info: >Email - rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx & rharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >Skype - rharmon928 >MSN - rharmon928@xxxxxxxxxxx >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx >To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:52 PM >Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >In your own opinion you're good. What objective measures or assessments can >you show for your claims? My point is that you are making the same mistake >as those who claim blind people can make websites as good as sighted people. >They are basing their arguments on personal anecdotal experience. I'm sorry >but if I walked into a medical center and discovered that the person helping >my elderly parent learn to control her Parkinson's related movement disorder >is a blind person, I'm going somewhere else. I want someone who will be able >to make an educated comprehensive assessment based on their own assessment >of the situation and not have to go through someone else to convey to them >the patient's physical movements. >Matthew >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx >To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 PM >Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >This entire thread is ridiculous. Loads of sighted people can't design a >decent Web site. Just when did it become necessary for each and every blind >person to perform above the standard of the best sighted designer or >anything else for that matter. That is a pretty high standard and just below >God. >Loads of blind programmers and Web authors can out design and out code many >thousands maybe millions of Web pages out there. Why isn't that enough? If >one excels for any reason at any level let us celebrate that. >I am a Physiotherapist. I am darn good at rehabilitating acquired brain >injuries, I suck at respiratory conditions and don't much care. This does >not negate my value. Admittedly I haven't won any awards either. >Congratulations and thank you to the extent I, as a blind person can benefit >from any reflected glory. >Now can we possibly return to the regularly scheduled programme? >Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada >DLeavens@xxxxxxx >Skype DaleLeavens >Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Léonie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx >To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:14 PM >Subject: RE: Team Excellence Award Winner >Matthew, >You seem to be suggesting that a VI person can't succeed, or rise to >eminence in their field, in a sighted world. I sincerely hope that you're >suggesting nothing of the kind, but perhaps you'd be good enough to clarify >your scepticism? > Regards, >Léonie. >-----Original Message----- >From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew2007 >Sent: 29 November 2007 16:30 >To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >In an effort to take your anecdotal post and bring it to life, name these >people. I want to try to find them and research the particulars of their >situations. After all, there is a nice big picture from 2003 of that moron >in the white house standing on a freight carrier next to a sign stating >"victory." We all know what this picture leads us to believe, but the truth >is very different. >Matthew >---- Original Message ----- >From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:45 AM >Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >> *taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*, >> *reciting mantra's to calm my spirit* >> teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the NFL by >> being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even with the >> average players despite his having only half of his right foot... >> one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being just >> better than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of the law, >> nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted average skiers, >> despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double amputee... >> one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by only >> fencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing only with >> those who are blind, even if one is blind themselves.. >> these are the types of people I am talking about, they are masters of >> there fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who don't or >> haven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct disadvantages >> that makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and force the >> world to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do what is >> required to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there field, no >> matter what... >> quit with the f... reeking you can't, because if one of us wishes to put >> forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote! >> inthane >> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and >> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me >> at: >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com >> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming >> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: >> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM >> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >>> Oh yes that could be true. There are sighted persons that don't even know >>> how to use a computer. So we can say that we as web designers are better >>> at web design than them. But who cares that we can be better than those >>> sighted that don't know too many things? >>> We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted web >>> designer.... at least. >>> But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to create >>> images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will care that >>> he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web pages, >>> or that his pages won't be W3C compliant. >>> If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html validator, it >>> will tell you: >>> Failed validation, 30 Errors >>> So... of course W3C's validator is not important at all, because Google's >>> page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design.... better said >>> almost without any design. >>> Octavian >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM >>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >>>> teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my >>>> previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a habit of >>>> overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I don't >>>> decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down.. >>>> I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have mastered >>>> areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as well or >>>> better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans >>>> laters, >>>> inthane >>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and >>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit >>>> me at: >>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com >>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming >>>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: >>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >>>>> Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't even show >>>>> us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come one >>>>> after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe the first >>>>> is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text >>>>> written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll slowly up >>>>> or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh. >>>>> I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes, there >>>>> are handicapped people without a leg that participate in different >>>>> sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they will >>>>> never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he is. >>>>> And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also >>>>> important. What we can do would have a very low value if we would be >>>>> able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer. >>>>> Octavian >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >>>>>> which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since we live >>>>>> in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going to >>>>>> need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no experience >>>>>> in the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an >>>>>> advantage. >>>>>> but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's the >>>>>> majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing with >>>>>> it, use the standards and templates when and where you can, and do >>>>>> your best to adapt. >>>>>> the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that has >>>>>> never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in his >>>>>> life, >>>>>> its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself often >>>>>> trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had site. >>>>>> one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep >>>>>> yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible cursor and >>>>>> go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such as, >>>>>> the that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents us >>>>>> with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille, >>>>>> including the navigation links which run from left to right across the >>>>>> page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us. >>>>>> take care, and good luck, >>>>>> inthane >>>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and >>>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit >>>>>> me at: >>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com >>>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several >>>>>> programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at: >>>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx >>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner >>>>>>> Hello folks, >>>>>>> Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it .. >>>>>>> visual >>>>>>> standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... I can >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, because I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved gfirmly that >>>>>>> the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the >>>>>>> listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me >>>>>>> naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview was in >>>>>>> the right!!!! >>>>>>> Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen >>>>>>> readers >>>>>>> use to present web content, I have dificulties to imagine hwat >>>>>>> exactly >>>>>>> sighted people expect to see in a webpage or something like this. >>>>>>> I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and >>>>>>> putting >>>>>>> * them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would happen >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how >>>>>>> browsers would react to it without testing is something very >>>>>>> different. >>>>>>> If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look and >>>>>>> feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces based on >>>>>>> the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only thing I >>>>>>> can do for now is build an interface based on someone's >>>>>>> specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying to build >>>>>>> something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't imagine >>>>>>> very well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own work, >>>>>>> which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of .. >>>>>>> now >>>>>>> the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they will >>>>>>> feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing >>>>>>> something which has not a visual result as its goal ... which should >>>>>>> be perfectly logical. >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Marlon >>>>>>> 2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>: >>>>>>>> Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, if you >>>>>>>> all will >>>>>>>> forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention hard >>>>>>>> work and >>>>>>>> determination, and the willingness to try. Cheers! >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner >>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>> Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who won a >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>> prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web >>>>>>>>> application. >>>>>>>>> Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site >>>>>>>>> using HTML, >>>>>>>>> CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C techniques and the >>>>>>>>> sighted >>>>>>>>> people in the company rave about it. >>>>>>>>> I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is blind >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> design Web interfaces well to keep on trying. You can do it. >>>>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>>>> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc., >>>>>>>>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810 >>>>>>>>> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can >>>>>>>>> change the >>>>>>>>> world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret >>>>>>>>> Mead >>>>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people just >>>>>>> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, for >>>>>>> free." >>>>>>> Linus Torvalds >>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>> __________ >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>> __________ >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>> __________ >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> __________ NOD32 2693 (20071129) Information __________ >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >__________ >View the list's information and change your settings at >//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >__________ >View the list's information and change your settings at >//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >__________ >View the list's information and change your settings at >//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >__________ NOD32 2693 (20071129) Information __________ >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >http://www.eset.com >__________ >View the list's information and change your settings at >//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >__________ >View the list's information and change your settings at >//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind