Re: Silverlight accessibility (fwd)
- From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 07:59:27 -0400
The economics of proprietary access technology software is not terribly
complicated but its effect is very bad for the consumers. At GNU, we are
trying (I've only been there a month or so) to bring consumers, hackers,
researchers and agencies - the largest stakeholder groups together to help
guide our work, to help us set priorities and to help us do some really
innovative things. First, we need to catch up but we've some really terrific
hackers working on that part.
On the proprietary side, though, the primary motivating factor is trying to pry
as many dollars out of funding organizations (ranging from state and Federal
agencies in the US to the well heeled European health system) and, as the
effect on their bottom line is minimal, they neglect to include consumers and
researchers and, because they keep their source from people in the field,
creative hackers who want to add cool features or fix nagging bugs are shut out
from doing so.
In the area of primary AT for PWVI we have a situation that probably violates
anti-trust statutes but no group with enough cash on hand (advocacy groups,
etc.) are willing to push forward on this front. So, JAWS, with its estimated
85% market share worldwide and tremendous penetration of their SMA program more
or less locks in purchasing organizations for a few years in advance.
For anyone old enough to remember the classic television program, "Laugh In"
you might recall the bit that Lily Tomlin did regarding AT&T when it still had
its monopoly. She played a telephone operator who, after doing some really
funny stuff, would end the sketch with, "We're the phone company - we don't
care, we don't have to.." This is, for screen readers at least, the position FS
finds itself and even though its 64 bit solutions have all sorts of problems,
it doesn't work too well with Windows 7 and does very poorly in many areas of
the newer office suite releases, they push out an upgrade that takes away one
of your SMA upgrades every September whether it contains anything good or not.
Sometimes, these releases which you have paid for in advance actually shows a
step backward for things you like and you've no way to skip an upgrade or
pressure FS into fixing your particular issue.
I haven't even installed JAWS 11 but I'm told that it is hardly different from
JAWS 10. Does it have anything interesting enough to warrant me taking it from
the envelope in which they sent it to me?
From my observations, among the proprietary screen readers for Windows,
Window-Eyes seems to be packed with real horsepower, is really stable and has
the coolest scripting facility out there today. Unfortunately, they can't break
through the JAWS juggernaut as purchasers would need to justify buying a new WE
at about $800 when they have already paid for the JAWS SMA.
Meanwhile, System Access is a really interesting prospect but maybe it is too
inexpensive for procurement people to take it seriously?
The only way to push FS into behavior that benefits the consumers (rather than
the purchasers) will take a large and likely very expensive effort. No person
or group seems interested in taking on such a battle so JAWS will maintain its
dominant position until MS puts a credible screen reader into the OS itself as
Apple did with VoiceOver.
cdh
On Apr 14, 2010, at 7:01 PM, Trouble wrote:
> Here is what 90% of FS listens to when it comes to accessibility.
> Those that pay for the program, but they don't use the program.
> Those that use the program 10% and some put on black lists and given hard
> times about getting keys renewed.
> Do you think if those that do use it paid for it. Would of bought something
> that is worse then one for free?
> Money talks and those that use the program ain't got the money to buy it.
> That is why it is what it is. They keep it that way, because there really
> ain't much better out there to use. And sheep fallow sheep!
>
> At 02:36 PM 4/12/2010, you wrote:
>> *sigh* someone hand me a brick and point me at the FS big wigs, no actually,
>> make that a battering ram, hitting them in the head with a brick would have
>> little effect obviously!
>>
>> elf
>> "Three things that should NEVER! be brought together; a laptop computer, a
>> full cup of coffee, and a sneeze!"
>> - Unknown Author-
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Cc: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 3:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: FW: Silverlight accessibility (fwd)
>>
>>
>>> The message with my screen reader comparisons was included (and still is at
>>> the bottom of this message). It was not far down, so if they had real
>>> interest in the topic, it would have been found. In fact, the only message
>>> in this chain that explained the JAWS problem also made comparisons with
>>> Window-Eyes and NVDA.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, however, it appears that those comparisons were ignored. No
>>> explanation was offered as to why JAWS works worse than other screen
>>> readers with Silverlight. Also, no explanation was given as to why JAWS
>>> does not work with other Silverlight controls besides the TextBox one that
>>> was mentioned.
>>>
>>> Jamal
>>>
>>> On 4/6/2010 8:52 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>> Did you respond with how NVDA works with it or how windoweyes at least
>>>> does more than jaws?
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 7:58 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Fwd: FW: Silverlight accessibility (fwd)
>>>>
>>>> Here is the response I got from FS on this topic.
>>>>
>>>> Jamal
>>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>>> Subject: FW: Silverlight accessibility (fwd)
>>>> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 23:55:02 -0400
>>>> From: Freedom Scientific Support<support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Reply-To:<support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Organization: Freedom Scientific
>>>> To:<empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> CC: EResponse<E_Response@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Jamal
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for contacting Freedom Scientific technical Support.
>>>> SilverLight's accessibility does not include support for text edit
>>>> areas. This is the reason for the JAWSR screen reading software issues
>>>> with SilverLight. If I can be of any additional assistance
>>>> to you, feel free to email me back.
>>>>
>>>> Be sure to include all previous correspondence pertaining to this
>>>> matter when replying to this message so that we might better
>>>> assist you.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mr. Tracey Jackson,
>>>> Technical Support Specialist
>>>> Freedom Scientific
>>>>
>>>> Phone support: 727 803 8600, option #2
>>>> E-mail Support:
>>>> support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:support@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Visit our website at:
>>>> http://www.freedomscientific.com/
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Jamal Mazrui [mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx]
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 2:43 PM
>>>> To: Freedom Scientific Technical Support; Eric Damery
>>>> Subject: Re: Silverlight accessibility (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:10:03 -0500
>>>> From: qubit<lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Silverlight accessibility
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jamal -- Perhaps this is an afterthought, but have you forwarded this
>>>> information to FS support? (They have enough to deal with
>>>> with the stuff I have forwarded to them, but maybe this is something that
>>>> needs to be
>>>> addressed.)
>>>> --le
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jamal Mazrui"<empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To:<JAWSScripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;<ProgrammingBlind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 9:54 AM
>>>> Subject: Silverlight accessibility
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> FYI: I just tried the following Silverlight site with the latest versions
>>>> of three screen readers:
>>>>
>>>> http://all-access.cbssports.com/player.html?code=wisyou
>>>>
>>>> It seemed to work well with NVDA 2010.1, worked partially with Window-Eyes
>>>> 7.2 public beta 1, and did not work at all with JAWS 11.0.756.
>>>>
>>>> I thought one of the major feature enhancements of JAWS 11 is support for
>>>> UIA, the accessibility API that Silverlight uses instead
>>>> of MSAA (Silverlight controls are a subset of Windows Presentation
>>>> Foundation, the successor to Windows Forms in the .NET
>>>> Framework). Is some kind of manual configuration needed to make the
>>>> latest JAWS work with Silverlight? I tried both IE 7 and
>>>> Firefox 3.6.
>>>>
>>>> Jamal
>>>>
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>
> Tim
> trouble
> Verizon FIOS support tech
> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance."
> --Sam Brown
>
> Blindeudora list owner.
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