I was not trying to get personal either I was only using some of the same examples you are. I think the two are exactly the same issues one person says I am illiterate if I can't read Braille well and I say that I would rather not be able to read Braille well then not both be able to use technology well. Do you realize this year for the first time I did all my shopping on my own? No I didn't buy everything on line but I researched everything on line. I took buses to stores and cabs to stores so I figure that's on my own since sited could and do do the same thing. But without the use of technology I could not have even pulled that much off. Tell me exactly what I cannot do if I do not know how to read Braille. Note I have every technology gadget there is and you cannot just throw them out they work and I will continue to work. I can list several things you cannot do if you don't know technology, I just want to see if people are willing to admit that while Braille is useful there is nothing I cannot do without it. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:49 AM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective Ken, I didn't mean this to be personal and I don't deny the benefits of technology. I bought my first HP125 with speech to assist my practice in 1982 when I couldn't really afford it and began programming because there really weren't the applications back then for it. I also keep an address book on my phone and of course I don't carry my notes about with me any more than do my sighted colleagues. I take my notebook computer traveling with me where ever I go and sometimes even a little note recorder though I prefer a small slate and paper. This discussion always seems to get personal and defensive. As I said I am not a really good braille reader but sure glad I am a functional braille user. What your buddy cannot do technologically isn't a discussion of braille use. It is a technologically illiterate presumably in a situation where that disadvantages him. That is not the same thing. I worked with many technologically disadvantaged persons, with increasing use of PDF and other non screen reader friendly applications in the Health Industry I was often technologically disadvantaged and braille was of no benefit to me there either. these are not the same issues. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective > You are wrong those of us who read Braille at a low level totally agree > that > reading Braille would be nice. What offends me though is people jumping > the > shark and calling anyone who can't read a story or a menu fast enough to > order illiterate. As I said in my first email I agree that Braille should > be taught in school and those who have the ability to learn at a young age > should but not knowing how to read Braille at a fast enough page to read > books is not an end all. I don't feel robbed because I can't. Whereas I > would feel robbed if I couldn't read text in the sighted world as a > sighted > person. It's a total different ball game. You have signs in the sighted > world. Braille signs are not only hard to find but when you find them > sometimes they are just stupid I found a Braille sign on a fire hydrant > once > that said it was a fire hydrant. You mentioned taking notes. I have 3 > devices that instantly turn on if I need them and can take notes not only > faster than I could with a brailler but I could search and call them up > faster. For that matter one of the devices I edit notes on my server with > in almost any place because its 3G so do you carry those volumes of notes > around with you in Braille? That would be a site. All I am saying is I > agree that Braille is good to learn. So that makes a middle ground I do > not > agree that I lose greatly by not knowing how to read Braille at a level > where I can read books. > > I tell you what though. I know a person that I work with that still to > this day cannot use a computer. He is trying to learn right now. I find > him at a much larger disadvantage and he is a Braille expert. He uses a > Braille note and has no idea of things he could do if he understood > technology. I find him at a much larger disadvantage than I find myself. > You can't individually shop without getting help if you know only Braille > but you can if you know technology. You can't create documents for the > sighted world if you know only Braille but you can with technology. > Braille > doesn't help you if you have to create those pill labels for other > customers > but technology does. I find that technology is a much more important tool > than Braille when interacting with the rest of the world. Braille has > made > it possible for the blind to get started and to self organize while > Technology has opened the world like nothing else has for blind people. > > Again I will finish this by saying I believe Braille should be taught but > it's time to stop telling our kids they are something less if they don't > read at the rate needed to read books in Braille. They are not something > less they are something different. Even the sighted world is starting to > have to come to terms with what the new technology age is bringing our > kids > into. It used to be you could not be a programmer in the sighted world if > you cannot learn a language. Not so with programming languages like > scratch > kids are learning to code visually. When coding languages get to the > point > where you can tell the computer what to do and it will do it and create an > application for others to use will they no longer be programmers. No > they will be programmers in a different way. We have to use the tools > that > give us the best life style possible and Braille is only a very small > portion of that life style unless you have multiple disabilities. > > Ken > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dale Leavens > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:55 AM > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical > perspective > > But surely that is the point. > > I too came to braille somewhat late and never was a really good braille > reader nevertheless Janet and I have three braillers around here, I always > had one on the corner of my desk at work for banging down notes or > telephone > > numbers, getting correct spellings for patient names and organizing lists > for placing orders or any number of other things. Nothing like the random > access to bits of information offered by written notes. We label things > with > > braille dymo tape, so convenient though we don't do it enough. > > Computer voice has certainly sped some things up and much recreational > reading I would never do without talking books. > > Certainly one can get along without being able to read or write braille. > remarkably large numbers of sighted people cannot read or write print > adequately either and many function so well that people don't know they > cannot. all that notwithstanding those who do not read braille adequately > for function really cannot appreciate the value and benefit of braille > literacy and those of us who do don't like to think of getting along > without > > it. > > Interestingly, neither has anyone ever asked me if I use braille when > applying for work. Many make assumptions that I would use a dog guide or > that a spouse drives me about or that I would be counting steps, I don't > think those questions have much to do with what is required. > > What computers have done for us more than anything else is add another > channel of literacy of a sort for us. As with braille they give us a > better > random access to what we read than we had with tape and a currency we > could > never have with tape or braille and in some situations more instantly. > > I don't know why this debate always seems to get defensive. It is like the > dog/cane thing somehow there doesn't seem to be any neutral ground. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: "Bob Kennedy" <intheshop@xxxxxxx> > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:55 AM > Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical > perspective > > >>I agree that braille is generally a valuable skill for a blind person to >>have. I think all rehab programs should include braille instruction, and >>all blind kids should be taught braille at an early age. Unfortunately, I >>have also concluded that it is extremely difficult for someone to become >>efficient in reading braille if he or she did not learn it as a young >>child -- perhaps similar to the way that languages are much harder to >>reach > >>fluency level when learned later in life. >> >> So, I read braille, but despite much practice during my late teens and >> early 20s, (I lost my sight as a junior in high school), I never achieved >> a speed that made it practical to use braille except for things like >> menus > >> and labels. I have met many blind adults who are similarly situated. We >> have to make the best of speech or other techniques besides braille. >> >> Jamal >> >> On 12/22/2010 4:18 AM, Bob Kennedy wrote: >>> Wow I didn't know there was so much passion for Braille. Having gone >>> blind >>> at age 12, I had to learn Braille, just later than most. Never could >>> read >>> fast and the careers I've had have left me with a small spot that is >>> smaller >>> than a full Braille cell of sensitivity on one finger. >>> >>> I've never had a problem finding work though, and no one has ever asked >>> me >>> if I can read Braille as a part of a job interview. >>> >>> No need for that when I built transmissions I guess. I have been asked >>> many >>> times about my computer skills since I've left the garage business but >>> still >>> no concern for Braille. >>> >>> I better hope it stays that way or I'll have to get the Think Green >>> people >>> involved. What is the ratio now? Four pages of Braille to one of >>> print? >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> >>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:40 PM >>> Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical >>> perspective >>> >>> >>> What Ken said. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Sina >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:44 PM >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical >>> perspective >>> >>> You said , >>> "Take away your tech, your electricity, your computer, your gadgets, >>> your >>> willing friends to read to you, hand you a greeting card >>> from a friend, a recipe, a medicine bottle with a braille label on it, >>> and >>> what happens? Go to a nice restaurant with a sighted >>> friend, have the waiter hand you a braille menu which they have gone to >>> the >>> trouble and expense of providing you, have that friend >>> step away to go to the restroom, the waiter approach you and ask: "What >>> will you have today?" What happens? "Sorry, can you read >>> me your menu? I can't read this." Litterate or illiterate? You tell >>> me." >>> >>> >>> You assume a lot of things in the above. I have been blind 20 years and >>> got >>> one Braille Christmas card, I have only recently >>> started seeing any Braille menus. If you took the tech from most >>> sighted >>> people they would be lost as well. I have never got one >>> bottle of pills with a Braille label. Most of the Pill bottles I get >>> come >>> with barcodes though and read fine. As for Cards my son >>> and daughter have given me audible ones. Hell I got one this year with >>> actual letters I could feel true this is like brailed so >>> don't really count. The point is Tech is here to stay and if it went >>> away >>> then maybe it would be worth me gaining speed with >>> Braille. It is like saying you don't know how to ride a horse so you >>> won't >>> be able to travel more than 20 to 40 miles a day >>> because you will have to walk if you don't have a car. . When I want >>> to >>> read a menu I download one and I do that on my Braille >>> plus and or Iphone both. I actually take pictures of menu on my IPhone >>> and >>> read it that way many times. I am sorry but my brother >>> has started going to restaurants in Atlanta only if they have online >>> menus >>> does that make him illiterate? Kids in college now >>> couldn't do Calculus if you took their calculator away but I could does >>> that >>> make them lost in the world of business because they >>> use a tool? >>> >>> I never said that my way I s the best way. What I said is to call them >>> illiterate is asinine. If they can write and read and spell >>> they are literate. You might not call them fully self sufficient but I >>> would argue that until every written word is in Braille then >>> no blind person is self sufficient when it comes to reading but then it >>> looks like Google will fix access to text long before paper >>> Braille ever catches up. >>> >>> Ken >>> >>> The funny thing is you say take your tech away and yet what you were >>> talking >>> about originally is reading with a Braille display. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Find yourself in a place with no new batteries for your machines, no >>> power, >>> access to a PC ETC. Hand you a slate and stylus or, >>> heck, just a sharp pin and some paper. Instruct you to leave a note for >>> a >>> friend that you stepped out for an hour and will be back, >>> and what happens? >>> >>> Take pride in your abilities, do. Even boast about how well your memory >>> works, your accomplishments in programming, your >>> mathematical prowess, whatever you like but, don't tell me there is no >>> value >>> in reading and that implying that if some can't >>> actually interact directly with text for themselves, know that letters >>> on >>> that page are forming themselves into words and so forth, >>> that this is an assinine thing to say. For one thing, it's rude, >>> discourteous, ETC. for another, it's not true. Do as many studies >>> as you like, ask as many people as you like, whatever. You are not >>> illiterate because you learned to read and write as a child. >>> You used print. You have some knowledge of braille. If you can't do >>> grade >>> II, it is probably because you chose to deny yourself >>> this skill. If you can learn computer code, you can learn braille code >>> be >>> it Nemeth, computer braille, musical notation, whatever >>> you like. If you can learn alternate keyboards, you can train your mind >>> to >>> learn the feel of different symbols. The only reason >>> you couldn't is if your sense of touch is not working for some reason. >>> In >>> spite of this, the fact that you were taught your letters >>> and how to read and write them as a child and learned them makes you >>> literate. You just haven't fully transferred those skills to >>> another medium because you chose to rely on tech instead of putting >>> forth >>> the time and effort it took to master them. There are >>> those who never really truly learn their letters unless they are the >>> ones >>> doing the writing, output, not input. Their knowledge of >>> letters is more akin to their ability to put words together in a spoken >>> sentence. They know how to type out letters on a computer >>> keyboard to get the computer to say what they want. A lot of them write >>> ate >>> when they mean eight, break when they mean brake, >>> speach when they mean speech and so forth because the computer speaks >>> them >>> out just the same and their mind never skips a beat when >>> they hear it spoken and when their friends hear them spoken from a >>> screen >>> reader. They can write, they can not read. ugly? >>> Unyielding? Yes, the world often is. Yes. Uncomfortable? You tell >>> me. >>> Fact? >>> Absolutely. It is immutable, uncontradictable, inarguable. >>> >>> Sorry about the rant. I will stop since this has gotten off topic. >>> It was never my intent to offend anyone. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Alex M >>> >>> On 12/21/10, Ken Perry<whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well I agree that Braille should be taught and is good to know. I >>>> have to put my 3 cents in. I went blind at 20 and in my now 20 years >>>> of being blind, I have only been able to learn to read Braille to the >>>> see dick run levels. That means I read enough to be able to code >>>> Braille output >>> methods >>>> (i.e. My unique way of Braille scrolling on the Braille+ and Icon) and >>>> I >>> can >>>> code games like Sudoku for the same devices. I can also read labels >>>> but >>> if >>>> you give me a Braille book be ready to age before I finish a paragraph. >>> Now >>>> I realize if I would have learned Braille when I was young it would be >>> much >>>> faster but I have said all this to say this. >>>> >>>> The idea that someone is illiterate because they don't read Braille >>>> and >>> are >>>> totally blind is just stupid and asinine. I have Taken High level >>>> math classes with no Knowledge of nemeth, True I would not have had >>>> to use a reader if I knew nemeth then but I also could have done it >>>> alone if they would have let me use the tools I can use for example I >>>> could do all my calculus by hand with my Calculator/ worksheet called >>>> xplore. It of >>> course >>>> is not really that accessible now that it's a windows app but when it >>>> was >>> a >>>> dos app it was awesome for doing math by hand on the computer. Yes >>>> the computer did some of the work when I wanted it to but hell seen a >>>> sighted person take calculus without an hp48 in hand lately? Now I >>>> will say when >>> I >>>> took Calculus I could and did do five page problems in my head. My >>> teacher >>>> actually insisted I do this for him once because he thought my reader >>>> was doing the math. Little did he know I did the stuff better than he >>>> could >>> do >>>> on paper in my head. I definitely couldn't do that now but back then >>>> I could. Ask Sina I am sure he has that same ability. >>>> >>>> Now you say there is a difference from reading something by hand to >>>> listening to it? Hell yeah the thing don't always pronounce things >>>> right and you can read a hell of a lot faster and retain more when >>>> listening. >>>> Doubt me? Test me against anyone who can read Braille at what would >>>> be considered 100% give us 10 books to read in the same amount of time >>>> and >>> test >>>> us on it. True this would really need to be done in a large group to >>>> make sure the people involved just were not stupid but I will >>>> guarantee the person listening to the text will retain more. >>>> >>>> You say yes but what about graphics and table. Um sorry but getting >>>> graphics and tables into Braille still takes translation of >>>> information >>> and >>>> you will lose something there as well. I actually found my Calculus >>>> books on tape from RFBD very well read and well described in fact the >>>> guy >>> correct >>>> the text book like 3 times that I remember while describing the >>>> graphics. >>>> >>>> Note I have lived in both worlds a world where I had to read and do >>>> math >>> on >>>> paper and now one I do everything in my head or on a computer. I find >>> using >>>> my brain a much better exercise than writing everything down. I call >>> paper >>>> whether it be sighted paper or Braille a disability in itself. I >>>> don't >>> whip >>>> out a book to take down a phone number I either remember it or poke it >>> into >>>> my phone. Most of the time I remember it just because that works for >>>> me. >>>> >>>> Now am I saying people don't need to learn Braille no. As I started >>>> out I think people should learn Braille from the beginning and even >>>> if they >>> lose >>>> their site it's a useful tool but I fully disagree that a person is >>>> illiterate just because he or she cannot read Braille well. >>>> >>>> I want to end by saying my wife who has a Kendil, and and IPad still >>>> loves to listen to Audible books and find she gets more out of the >>>> books when >>> she >>>> listens because her mind can both listen to what she is reading and >>>> assimilate the information without having to do the work of actually >>> reading >>>> the text and if you think that doesn't make a difference again I think >>> some >>>> studies should be done. >>>> >>>> Ken >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex >>>> Midence >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:14 AM >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical >>>> perspective >>>> >>>> Hi, Don, >>>> >>>> For someone like you, braille isn't a viable solution. Your case is >>>> special and understandable. You can't read braille unless you can >>>> feel your way across a line. About the most sensitive organ remaining >>>> to you short of your tongue for this purpose is probably the tip of >>>> your nose and, that would be ... well ... Let's just say that audio >>>> tech is a wonderful thing. We can't have folks giggling at us when we >>>> read, you know. =) I'm talking about kids who grew up blind and have >>>> two perfectly functioning index fingers (never could read with my >>>> pinky, can anyone?) and a mind to go with them. They should be able >>>> to use both braille and audio to good effect. >>>> >>>> alex M >>>> >>>> On 12/20/10, Don Marang<donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>> My older sister was upset at me because I was unable to learn braille! >>> My >>>>> remaining fingers are just too insensitive now from nerve damage and >>>> endless >>>>> blood tests. She has been a teacher at a blind school for at least >>>>> 20 >>>> years >>>>> and is a huge advocate for braille litercy. She even reads braille >>>>> while she is driving! >>>>> >>>>> Don Marang >>>>> >>>>> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of >>>>> any >>>> real >>>>> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am >>>> working >>>>> on things that matter. >>>>> Dean Kamen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Alex Midence"<alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:03 PM >>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical >>>>> perspective >>>>> >>>>>> Glad you liked it. I was hoping someone on this list would have >>>>>> personal recollections of this time and the tech available. Neat >>>>>> how there was braille output as far back as the 50's. It's a shame >>>>>> that that stuff is stil as expensive as it is. Perhaps, some day, >>>>>> as happened with speech technology, blind people will see the price >>>>>> of a braille display drop to something affordable as in, under a >>>>>> thousand dollars? Same for a braille printer/embosser. I am >>>>>> enormously concerned at how many of the blind kids I have met >>>>>> recently have poor braille reading skils and don't really seem to >>>>>> care that they are bordering on illiteracy. Having something or >>>>>> someone read to you is not the same as direct input from a written >>>>>> document to your mind without an intermediary. In this age of >>>>>> electronic texts, you would think that braille would explode in >>>>>> popularity since you no longer have to fill a room with tomes of the >>>>>> stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> Alex M >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12/20/10, Rasmussen, Lloyd<lras@xxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>> That was fascinating. Dr. Stoffel worked at NIH for a period after >>>>>>> he wrote that article. I could go on and on about this ancient >>>>>>> technology, but had better do it off-list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People had produced braille from computers since the 50's. The >>>>>>> first speech for a blind computer user was for Jim Willows, an >>>>>>> engineer at the Lawrence-Livermore Laboratories in 1968 (letters >>>>>>> and numbers played out through a digital-to-analog converter). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The context of this article ... Votrax devices had been on the >>>>>>> market for several years, but the SC-01 chip was put into the Type >>>>>>> 'n Talk in >>> 1981. >>>>>>> This device had built-in letter-to-sound rules, so you didn't have >>>>>>> to send phonemes to it as you did the earlier V S A and VSB boards. >>>>>>> These >>> three >>>>>>> devices took RS-232 data and either acted like terminals or >>>>>>> interpreted terminal sequences and sent the data along through >>>>>>> another serial port >>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> displayed. They were not screen readers running on the computer >>>>>>> whose screen was being read. It was revolutionary to think that >>>>>>> you could >>> buy >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> $300 Type 'n Talk instead of a $5,000 talking terminal to speak the >>> data >>>>>>> coming from an RS-232 device. The Echo II synthesizer (using the T >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> technology) was added to the Apple II at about this time. By the >>>>>>> end >>> of >>>>>>> 1983 there were screen readers for the Apple II and for the IBM PC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I worked a little bit with the FSST-3 and the VERT terminal, and >>>>>>> heard Deane Blazie demonstrate the TotalTalk at various >>>>>>> conventions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer National Library Service >>>>>>> for the Blind and Physically Handicapped >>>>>>> Library of Congress 202-707-0535 >>>>>>> http://www.loc.gov/nls >>>>>>> The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect >>>>>>> those >>>> of >>>>>>> the Library of Congress, NLS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex >>> Midence >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:24 PM >>>>>>> To: programmingblind >>>>>>> Subject: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical >>>> perspective >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, all.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I thought this was rather interesting. It is an article written in >>>>>>> 1982 about some of the techniques used back then to write screne >>> readers >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> "talking terminals" as they called them. I was struck by some of >>>>>>> the predictions the author made with regard to the future, some of >>>>>>> wich >>> came >>>>>>> true and others which did not. There was also a very interesting >>>> section >>>>>>> >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> speech synthesis and how to get the hardware and software to do >>>>>>> many of the things we take for granted nowadays like starting and >>>>>>> stopping speech, repeating previously spoken text, deciding what to >>>>>>> say as an acronym >>> and >>>>>>> what to speak as a word, punctuation levels and so forth. It was >>>>>>> fascinating stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> > http://web.archive.org/web/20060625225004/http://www.edstoffel.com/david/tal >>>> kingterminals.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh yeah, and get a load of the prices for that stuff! Keep in mind >>> that >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> in 1980's money too. Put like a 33% markup on it and you might >>>>>>> approximate what it would cost in today's money. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alex M >>>>>>> __________ >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> __________ >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> __________ >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>>> >>>>> >>>> __________ >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>> >>>> __________ >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>>> >>>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >>> __________ >>> View the list's information and change your settings at >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >>> >> __________ >> View the list's information and change your settings at >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind >> >> > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind