RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective

  • From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:40:29 -0500

What Ken said.

Take care,
Sina 

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:44 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical perspective

You said ,
"Take away your tech, your electricity, your computer, your gadgets, your 
willing friends to read to you, hand you a greeting card
from a friend, a recipe, a medicine bottle with a braille label on it, and what 
happens?  Go to a nice restaurant with a sighted
friend, have the waiter hand you a braille menu which they have gone to the 
trouble and expense of providing you, have that friend
step away to go to the restroom, the waiter approach you and ask:  "What will 
you have today?"  What happens?  "Sorry, can you read
me your menu?  I can't read this."  Litterate or illiterate?  You tell me."


You assume a lot of things in the above.  I have been blind 20 years and got 
one Braille Christmas card,  I have only recently
started seeing any Braille menus.  If you took the tech from most sighted 
people they would be lost as well.  I have never got one
bottle of pills with a Braille label.  Most of the Pill bottles I get come with 
barcodes though and read fine.  As for Cards  my son
and daughter have given me audible ones.  Hell I got one this year with actual 
letters I could feel true this is like brailed so
don't really count.  The point is Tech is here to stay and if it went away then 
maybe it would be worth me gaining speed with
Braille.  It is like saying you don't know how to ride a horse so you won't be 
able to travel more than 20 to 40  miles  a day
because you will have to walk if you don't have a car.  .  When I want to read 
a menu I download one and I do that on my Braille
plus and or Iphone both.  I actually take pictures of menu on  my IPhone and 
read it that way many times.  I am sorry but my brother
has started going to restaurants in Atlanta only if they have online menus does 
that make him illiterate? Kids in college now
couldn't do Calculus if you took their calculator away but I could does that 
make them lost in the world of business  because they
use a tool?  

I never said that my way I s the best way.  What I said is to call them 
illiterate is asinine.  If they can write and read and spell
they are literate.  You might not call them fully self sufficient but I would 
argue that until every written word is in Braille then
no blind person is self sufficient when it comes to reading but then it looks 
like Google will fix access to text long before paper
Braille ever catches up. 

Ken

The funny thing is you say take your tech away and yet what you were talking
about originally is reading with a Braille display.   







Find yourself in a place with no new batteries for your machines, no power, 
access to a PC ETC.  Hand you a slate and stylus or,
heck, just a sharp pin and some paper.  Instruct you to leave a note for a 
friend that you stepped out for an hour and will be back,
and what happens?

Take pride in your abilities, do.  Even boast about how well your memory works, 
your accomplishments in programming, your
mathematical prowess, whatever you like but, don't tell me there is no value in 
reading and that implying that if some can't
actually interact directly with text for themselves, know that letters on that 
page are forming themselves into words and so forth,
that this is an assinine thing to say.  For one thing, it's rude, discourteous, 
ETC. for another, it's not true.  Do as many studies
as you like, ask as many people as you like, whatever.  You are not illiterate 
because you learned to read and write as a child.
You used print.  You have some knowledge of braille.  If you can't do grade II, 
it is probably because you chose to deny yourself
this skill.  If you can learn computer code, you can learn braille code be it 
Nemeth, computer braille, musical notation, whatever
you like.  If you can learn alternate keyboards, you can train your mind to 
learn the feel of different symbols.  The only reason
you couldn't is if your sense of touch is not working for some reason.  In 
spite of this, the fact that you were taught your letters
and how to read and write them as a child and learned them makes you literate.  
You just haven't fully transferred those skills to
another medium because you chose to rely on tech instead of putting forth the 
time and effort it took to master them.  There are
those who never really truly learn their letters unless they are the ones doing 
the writing, output, not input.  Their knowledge of
letters is more akin to their ability to put words together in a spoken 
sentence.  They know how to type out letters on a computer
keyboard to get the computer to say what they want.  A lot of them write ate 
when they mean eight, break when they mean brake,
speach when they mean speech and so forth because the computer speaks them out 
just the same and their mind never skips a beat when
they hear it spoken and when their friends hear them spoken from a screen 
reader.  They can write, they can not read.  ugly?
Unyielding?  Yes, the world often is.  Yes.  Uncomfortable?  You tell me.  Fact?
Absolutely.  It is immutable, uncontradictable, inarguable.

Sorry about the rant.  I will stop since this has gotten off topic.
It was never my intent to offend anyone.

Regards,
Alex M

On 12/21/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Well I agree that Braille should be taught and is good to know.  I 
> have to put my 3 cents in.  I went blind at 20 and in my now 20 years 
> of being blind,  I have only been able to learn to read Braille to the 
> see dick run levels.  That means I read enough to be able to code 
> Braille output
methods
> (i.e. My unique way of Braille scrolling on the Braille+ and Icon) and 
> I
can
> code games like Sudoku for the same devices.  I can also read labels 
> but
if
> you give me a Braille book be ready to age before I finish a paragraph.
Now
> I realize if I would have learned Braille when I was young it would be
much
> faster but I have said all this to say this.
>
> The idea that someone is illiterate because they don't read Braille 
> and
are
> totally blind is just stupid and asinine.  I have Taken High level  
> math classes with no Knowledge of nemeth,  True I would not have had 
> to use a reader if I knew nemeth then but I also could have done it 
> alone if they would have let me use the tools I can use for example I 
> could do all my calculus by hand with my Calculator/ worksheet called 
> xplore.  It  of
course
> is not really that accessible now that it's a windows app but when it 
> was
a
> dos app it was awesome for doing math by hand on the computer.  Yes 
> the computer did some of the work when I wanted it to but hell seen a 
> sighted person take calculus without an hp48 in hand lately?  Now I 
> will say when
I
> took Calculus I could and did do five page problems in my head.  My
teacher
> actually insisted I do this for him once because he thought my reader 
> was doing the math.  Little did he know I did the stuff better than he 
> could
do
> on paper in my head.  I definitely couldn't do that now but back then 
> I could.  Ask Sina I am sure he has that same ability.
>
> Now you say there is a difference from reading something by hand to 
> listening to it?  Hell yeah the thing don't always pronounce things 
> right and you can read a hell of a lot faster and retain more when listening.
> Doubt me?  Test me against anyone who can read Braille at what would 
> be considered 100% give us 10 books to read in the same amount of time 
> and
test
> us on it.  True this would really need to be done in a large group to 
> make sure the people involved just were not stupid but I will 
> guarantee the person listening to the text will retain more.
>
> You say yes but what about graphics and table.  Um sorry but getting 
> graphics and tables into Braille still takes translation of 
> information
and
> you will lose something there as well.  I actually found my Calculus 
> books on tape from RFBD very well read and well described in fact the 
> guy
correct
> the text book like 3 times that I remember while describing the graphics.
>
> Note I have lived in both worlds a world where I had to read and do 
> math
on
> paper and now one I do everything in my head or on a computer.  I find
using
> my brain a much better exercise than writing everything down.  I call
paper
> whether it be sighted paper or Braille a disability in itself.  I 
> don't
whip
> out a book to take down a phone number I either remember it or poke it
into
> my phone.  Most of the time I remember it just because that works for me.
>
> Now am I saying people don't need to learn Braille no.  As I started 
> out I think people should learn Braille  from the beginning and even 
> if they
lose
> their site it's a useful tool but I fully disagree that a person is 
> illiterate just because he or she cannot read Braille well.
>
> I want to end by saying my wife who has a Kendil, and and IPad still 
> loves to listen to Audible books and find she gets more out of the 
> books when
she
> listens because her mind can both listen to what she is reading and 
> assimilate the information without having to do the work of actually
reading
> the text and if you think that doesn't make a difference again I think
some
> studies should be done.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex 
> Midence
> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:14 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical 
> perspective
>
> Hi, Don,
>
> For someone like you, braille isn't a viable solution.  Your case is 
> special and understandable.  You can't read braille unless you can 
> feel your way across a line.  About the most sensitive organ remaining 
> to you short of your tongue for this purpose is probably the tip of 
> your nose and, that would be ... well ... Let's just say that audio 
> tech is a wonderful thing.  We can't have folks giggling at us when we 
> read, you know.  =)  I'm talking about kids who grew up blind and have 
> two perfectly functioning index fingers (never could read with my 
> pinky, can anyone?) and a mind to go with them.  They should be able 
> to use both braille and audio to good effect.
>
> alex M
>
> On 12/20/10, Don Marang <donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> My older sister was upset at me because I was unable to learn braille!
My
>> remaining fingers are just too insensitive now from nerve damage and
> endless
>> blood tests.  She has been a teacher at a blind school for at least 
>> 20
> years
>> and is a huge advocate for braille litercy.  She even reads braille 
>> while she is driving!
>>
>> Don Marang
>>
>> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of 
>> any
> real
>> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am
> working
>> on things that matter.
>> Dean Kamen
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:03 PM
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: Re: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical 
>> perspective
>>
>>> Glad you liked it.  I was hoping someone on this list would have 
>>> personal recollections of this time and the tech available.  Neat 
>>> how there was braille output as far back as the 50's.  It's a shame 
>>> that that stuff is stil as expensive as it is.  Perhaps, some day, 
>>> as happened with speech technology, blind people will see the price 
>>> of a braille display drop to something affordable as in, under a 
>>> thousand dollars?  Same for a braille printer/embosser.  I am 
>>> enormously concerned at how many of the blind kids I have met 
>>> recently have poor braille reading skils and don't really seem to 
>>> care that they are bordering on illiteracy.  Having something or 
>>> someone read to you is not the same as direct input from a written 
>>> document to your mind without an intermediary.  In this age of 
>>> electronic texts, you would think that braille would explode in 
>>> popularity since you no longer have to fill a room with tomes of the stuff.
>>>
>>> Alex M
>>>
>>> On 12/20/10, Rasmussen, Lloyd <lras@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> That was fascinating.  Dr. Stoffel worked at NIH for a period after 
>>>> he wrote that article.  I could go on and on about this ancient 
>>>> technology, but had better do it off-list.
>>>>
>>>> People had produced braille from computers since the 50's.  The 
>>>> first speech for a blind computer user was for Jim Willows, an 
>>>> engineer  at the Lawrence-Livermore Laboratories in 1968 (letters 
>>>> and numbers played out through a digital-to-analog converter).
>>>>
>>>> The context of this article ...  Votrax devices had been on the 
>>>> market for several years, but the SC-01 chip was put into the Type 
>>>> 'n Talk in
1981.
>>>> This device had built-in letter-to-sound rules, so you didn't have 
>>>> to send phonemes to it as you did the earlier V S A and VSB boards.  
>>>> These
three
>>>> devices took RS-232 data and either acted like terminals or 
>>>> interpreted terminal sequences and sent the data along through 
>>>> another serial port
> to
>>>>
>>>> be
>>>> displayed.  They were not screen readers running on the computer 
>>>> whose screen was being read.  It was revolutionary to think that 
>>>> you could
buy
>>>> a
>>>> $300 Type 'n Talk instead of a $5,000 talking terminal to speak the
data
>>>> coming from an RS-232 device.  The Echo II synthesizer (using the T 
>>>> I
>>>> technology) was added to the Apple II at about this time.  By the 
>>>> end
of
>>>> 1983 there were screen readers for the Apple II and for the IBM PC.
>>>>
>>>> I worked a little bit with the FSST-3 and the VERT terminal, and 
>>>> heard Deane Blazie demonstrate the TotalTalk at various 
>>>> conventions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Project Engineer National Library Service 
>>>> for the Blind and Physically Handicapped
>>>> Library of Congress   202-707-0535
>>>> http://www.loc.gov/nls
>>>> The preceding opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect 
>>>> those
> of
>>>> the Library of Congress, NLS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex
Midence
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:24 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind
>>>> Subject: Screen readers and how to develop them: A historical
> perspective
>>>>
>>>> Hi, all..
>>>>
>>>> I thought this was rather interesting.  It is an article written in
>>>> 1982 about some of the techniques used back then to write screne
readers
>>>> or
>>>> "talking terminals" as they called them.  I was struck by some of 
>>>> the predictions the author made with regard to the future, some of 
>>>> wich
came
>>>> true and others which did not.  There was also a very interesting
> section
>>>>
>>>> on
>>>> speech synthesis and how to get the hardware and software to do 
>>>> many of the things we take for granted nowadays like starting and 
>>>> stopping speech, repeating previously spoken text, deciding what to 
>>>> say as an acronym
and
>>>> what to speak as a word, punctuation levels and so forth.  It was 
>>>> fascinating stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>
http://web.archive.org/web/20060625225004/http://www.edstoffel.com/david/tal
> kingterminals.html
>>>>
>>>> Oh yeah, and get a load of the prices for that stuff!  Keep in mind
that
>>>> was
>>>> in 1980's money too.  Put like a 33% markup on it and you might 
>>>> approximate what it would cost in today's money.
>>>>
>>>> Alex M
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