I'm done with this topic. You don't know me, so... I find it ironic that you know how I think learning a full language is. Not two months ago you were throwing a huge fit about why python is unfit for the blind, burning crosses on people's lawns who advocated for learning it. Now you want to compare?
Peace, amusing you----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Râsnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 2:43 AM Subject: Re: Python?
You exagerate or you don't remember.In many messages I told what I don't like in perl and even in the messages of this thread I did that.You are the kind of guy that think that learning a language means just to learn the core of the language and nothing more than that, and as I said, yes, perl without CPAN modules is not a very appropriate language for these days, however, with those modules it offers much more features than python, or ruby, or PHP.But this is not the main problem, and your reaction is not because I told that I don't like python. Jamal and other list members also told that they don't like that requirement of indentation in python, but you didn't jump to tell him what you told me.So I don't know what you don't like. Maybe you are just like the majority of the people and don't like when somebody tells you that he doesn't like something, and yes, I tend to first tell what I don't like in perl, what I don't like in Python, PHP, Java, C#, and tell very few things that I like. I do this as a reaction to the majority of that stupid positivity of the people that considers that it is not good to be a negativist. Why not? I think that the percent of positivity and negativity should be equal, because it is more important to show the people which are the bad parts of anything, and not fool them and make them think that there are just positive parts because the promotions tell them so.But I'm not sure your reaction appeared because of this. Maybe you'll tell us why.I wonder how you could say that I can't compare perl with python because I don't know python. Do you know perl to be able to understand that comparison at least? Do you know python? Please tell us which are the web frameworks for python that you use, and which are the ORMS for python that you consider better than those for perl, and the templating systems and why, and the form managers for python and which are those features of them that make them better, and the tools for including JS libraries in a program, or other reasons.That kind of comparison one by one would be a real benefit for the other programmers and not just words about the advantage of python because it doesn't use too many punctuation signs or because it is object oriented without needing to use external modules.Octavian----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Littlefield" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 1:36 AM Subject: Re: Python?I wrote this because for all your rants about how perl is the greatest and python sucks, you seem to be trying to compare a language you know nothing of.----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Râsnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Python?I don't care if you read my messages or not, but why do you think I want to know this?You are an intelligent guy, but your atitude is not a very mature one. It is normal at your age, so from my point of view it is ok.I also know that the atitude of most members of the group is not a really impartial one, but I also don't care about this.You also know why, but if you don't, I can explain. :-) Octavian----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Littlefield" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 12:58 AM Subject: Re: Python?I'm totally not going to read teddy's message about how he wants to marry the makers of perl because it's golden.----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Râsnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Python?This is because maybe you are not familiar with the perl community.There are hundreads of perl related mailing lists, for beginners, for CGI developers, for each web framework that can be done in perl, for each module that's some more popular and well developed, for each library for creating desktop GUIS, IRC channels for most of them, hundreads of CPAN mirrors all over the globe, more perl distributions, more ppm repositories, and so on.It is not so important that perl 6 is not ready yet, even though it would be very good to have all its features, because the CPAN modules can be used to get those features that should be offered by next versions of Perl.For example, I know that most perl books (maybe all of them) teach about how to create OOP programs in perl, but in the old style. But if you want to use the way that will be used in Perl 6, you could use the modules Moose, or Mouse which offer more features, making the OOP development much easier. For example you don't need to define the constructors if you don't want, you can define the type of variables and specify if they are read/write or readonly and other things like these.You can also use the modules IO::*, File::*, List::*, Scalar::* and others that lets you create OOP programs without needing to use the perl built in functions, and use less code.The real problem of all these is the same thing which is considered the biggest advantage of perl: the fact that there are more ways to do it.I truly think that this advantage is no more an advantage these days.I don't really like the Python's "there is only one way to do it" style, but what is too much is too much, and there are far too many CPAN modules, very many of them do similar things, but some of them are very good and some of them very bad. Well, a beginner doesn't know which are the good ones, and which are the bad ones, and he doesn't know what to choose, and finally he might choose PHP or Python.And this is not a problem for the beginners only. I have a lot of experience in perl, but if I need to do something in a program, I am sure I will find a module on CPAN that can help me, however I am also sure that I will surely find very many modules, and I would need to start testing them. Some of them would work only if I would use ANSI code and no UTF-8 because the creator cares only about the english-speakers only. Others can't be used with Right-To-Left languages so I know I won't be able to use them for those languages, others create GUIS that are not accessible for the blind, others are too low level, others have bugs, some of them are too slow, or some of them are very good and fast developing, but lack documentation, some of them are not thread-safe, some of them are not working under Windows and so on. And the perl developers are usually much less interested about Windows than python developers, which is something I don't like, because even though I put the programs to run under Linux, I make them under Windows.But I also know that every language has libraries which are not thread-safe, or which are badly made, or have errors, or are deprecated. At least for perl I can install them from CPAN.It doesn't matter that it appeared the version 3 for python, but perl is still on version 5, while I can't find libraries for python which are as advanced as those for perl in the fields I need. I am sure python is better than perl for creating desktop apps and especially under Windows, because there are very very few good perl developers that care about Windows related things like OLE, Win32 API, or creating Windows threads and managing Windows processes. But I am nostly interested for web development, for working with databases, templating systems, libraries for internationalization and other things like these.And I also use modules that get financial data from different web sites, create graphs and other things like these, so it depends on what we need to do in our jobs.Octavian----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Python?One other disadvantage I have encountered using Python with speech relatesto the number of syllables one has to hear. Recommended style is todelimit strings with a single rather than double quote (though either may be used). By my count, apostrophe is four syllables compared to one for quote. A similar issue is with the special object properties that begin and end with double underscore sequences, e.g., __init__ -- that's six syllables before the word and six after! This can be annoyingly verboseat times, e.g., when querying the attributes of an object in theinteractive environment. Of course, this is a relatively minor issue, but I am mentioning it too in the spirit of listing all screen-reader factorsthat come to mind.What impresses me about Python, perhaps more than anything else, is howorganized, dedicated, and sophisticated the community is. There arenumerous, well-known Python experts besides the lead author. There are more Python conferences than for any other scripting language. Python 3 is out, but Perl 6 is not even close. Ruby 1.9.1 was finally released officially, but without a usable version for Windows, and based on the web site and my inquiries to a WxRuby list, a solid Windows version will notbe coming any time soon! 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