If I recall, regarding indenting, Ed Sharp does have indent notification. this should make indenting easier for those who write in the Python language. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Python?If you read my message I think you understand that I know that Jaws can be set to announce the indentation. But what I said was that that announcement doesn't take 0 seconds so the productivity decreases if we need to hear the indentation for each row when it changes. So it is not something good for the blind. We can live with it, but it is something bad, not good.
If we need to work in a team of sighted and need to use indentation, then we can do it without beeing forced to do it, but in other cases we could avoid using it in the languages that allow this.
Octavian----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 12:00 AM Subject: Re: Python? JAWS has a setting which will announce indentation levels. I think Window-Eyes has something similar but cannot remember for certain. I think orca has an indentation announcement when working in Python. Lastly, emacs has an indentation announcement feature which works great with both orca and emacspeak. Happy Hacking, cdh On Feb 12, 2009, at 4:02 PM, Octavian Râsnita wrote:
I think that the answer to this question depends on how far want the students to reach in programming and what kind of programs they are interested in. If a student intends to learn many programming languages, to become a very advanced programmer, to be able to write drivers, database management systems, compilers, multimedia core libraries, OS kernels, but real, not just as a sample for a lab, then I think they should start learning C/C++, even if they won't create too many programs in those languages. I think that it is not a good idea these days to need to do memory management, but it is well to know how it works even if it is done automaticly. After that start, I think that they can learn very easy languages like C#, Java, Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby and others. On the other hand, if those students want just to do some programs as easy as possible, very productive, with as little effort as possible, with as little effort for learning as possible, they should start by learning a dynamic language like PHP, Perl, or Ruby. And... if they are sighted... Python also. The biggest advantage of python for the sighted is the indentation requirement, because the indentation is very helpful for the sighted, and if it is required, than this helps them, because the language doesn't require using extra chars for delimiting blocks or expression endings. For the blind persons on the other hand, the indentation not only that it is not helpful at all, especially for those who use speech only, because we can't see an entire screen and understand the structure of the program, but it just means more unuseful space chars to type, which are harder to count. If we configure the screen reader to tell us the number of the indenting chars, this would mean time loss just for hearing that indentation level, which is not helpful. But I think there might be a situation in which the blind students would be advantaged if they would start learning python. If they don't intend to learn too many languages, and after python they don't think to learn C or C++, or the assembly language, and if they are interested mostly in creating desktop programs, then python might be their best choice. Perl is much better than Python for creating web apps, because there are much more tools for it than for python, and they are much advanced. For simple web apps, PHP is very enough. Even Ruby is good, although there are no very many libraries for it yet. Python is better than Perl for creating desktop apps, working with the elements of the operating system, creating desktop GUIs. Even though the desktop GUIS are less and less used, the blind users prefer using them because they are better accessible and faster, so there may be many blind students interested in creating them, even though Python is harder to use by the blind and the desktop GUIS are harder to create. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Balik" <spbalik@xxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:46 PM Subject: Re: Python?Thank you all so much for your thoughtful, informative responses. We had a speaker here today discussing the pros and cons of teaching Python as a beginning language so I wanted to hear what you all thought about it. I will either forward your comments to him or point him to the archive so he can read about the pros/cons of Python for blind programmers as well your more pedagogical comments. Coincidentally, right after his talk, a book rep stopped by and told me that many schools are switching to Python as the beginning course. Thanks again, Suzanne -- Suzanne Balik Computer Science Dept Box 8206 Adjunct Lecturer North Carolina State University EB II 2318 Raleigh, NC 27695-8206 (919)515-5617 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~spbalik When life kicks you, let it kick you forward. Kay Yow Jamal Mazrui wrote:As you may be aware, there seems to be an increasing trend toward using Python in beginning computer science courses, e.g., as argued in the following articles: In Praise of Scripting: Real Programming Pragmatism http://www.cse.wustl.edu/~loui/praiseieee.html Why Python is a great language for teaching beginners in introductory programming classes http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/python-teaching.htm The Case For Replacing Java With Python In Education http://thinkingdigitally.com/archive/the-case-for-replacing-java-with-python-in-education/ Teaching programming http://gride.googlecode.com/files/lmuziol-teaching-summary.pdf While a lot of these arguments are persuasive to me, I do think Python presents significant usability obstacles to beginning blind programmers, unfortunately. I agree with the defense that indentation is a good practice that sighted programmers expect, but the problem is not just indenting code like in other languages. With Python, there are no keywords or punctuation marks that a screen reader user (with speech) will automatically encounter when reading code. Instead, one has to often check the current indentation level and then translate that mentally into a code grouping. It is different for a sighted person, where the grouping is simultaneously evident from the indentation as the eye views multiple lines at once. I agree with others that automatic styling utilities/code beutifiers work well enough with other languages so that indentation can be adjusted for sighted consumption if not initially done. Another problem of Python is case-sensitivity. Most languages are case sensitive, so this is not unusual, but not getting tripped up by case is friendlier to beginners. A blind person hearing code is probably not as aware of how identifiers are capitalized when different choices could be made, e.g., OpenXMLFile or OpenXmlFile. Another issue is how Python tends to run words together instead of consistently using either PascalCase or snake_case. This makes reading with speech less intelligible. Let me be clear that Python has a lot going for it -- I'm just citing problems from a blindness perspective, since you asked. These problems are manageable with various techniques, as demonstrated by blind programmers on this and other lists. They are extra challenges, however, that sighted beginners do not face. Personally, I have come to the view that Visual Basic .NET is currently the best language for a beginning blind programmer to learn. I realize it is Windows-oriented, however, rather than cross-platform, which may be important in a computer science curriculum. I guess the needs of someone wanting to graduate in CS or a related subject are different from someone else, e.g., a liberal arts major, who justs wants to take an introductory programming course. It can be expected that a CS-like student would need to manage challenges that a casual programming student would not. Also, a CS-like student would need to learn more about theory and have a language that supports advanced techniques. Just my opinions -- others differ. Jamal On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Suzanne Balik wrote:Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 08:07:29 -0500 From: Suzanne Balik <spbalik@xxxxxxxx> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Python? Could some of you comment on using Python to teach programming at the college level and the effect that would have, if any, on blind students? Thanks so much, Suzanne -- Suzanne Balik Computer Science Dept Box 8206 Adjunct Lecturer North Carolina State University EB II 2318 Raleigh, NC 27695-8206 (919)515-5617 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~spbalik When life kicks you, let it kick you forward. Kay Yow __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
