Re: Paying for Open source was Eloquence with NVDA
- From: Kerneels Roos <kerneels@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:19:33 +0200
Hi folks,
Recently I spent a while on the gnu.org site reading all about the GNU Free
Software philosophies and ideals. It can really grab your attention as a
programmer, especially if you've spent some time in the Linux world. I came
away with emotions I can best describe as catharsis without closure. The
whole subject is interwoven with the history of computing and trends that
came and went and some of which are still present today. All in all it's a
subject worth studying if you want to know what's going on around you in the
digital world.
I found out that Free software and Open Source is not necessarily the same
thing, and that it appears as if the pure GNU Free Software Foundation
proponents feel slightly betrayed by open source licenses and models
blurring the lines ever so slightly between free and proprietary, and maybe
even a bit gellous of the success of open source compared to GNU free
software.
Software really is a totally unique concept compared to physical things.
What an amazing world to be involved in?
There must be a few models for making a living out of free software and open
source, but I suspect it will be tricky to make a killing, or really good
money from open source and free software alone.
I've never heard about the Win XP looping bugs and that without them XP
could have run on a computer with only a little bit of RAM? Anyone know more
about this or could post some links?
free software is such a wonderful ideal, but I'm afraid it will never reach
it's intended goals in this world we are living in.
Maybe the key to gaining the best out of both worlds is to realise exactly
what free, open source and proprietary software really are, and not to be
misled by your own false perceptions or the author's attempts to make the
software more appealing. What I mean is, each of those classes of software
have their own unique strenghts and weaknesses but because of pressures from
all fronts the author might try and portray his creation as the best
solution for all scenarios -- which it can never be.
Lastly I would like to say we should probably pay more attention to the
strings attached to the "I Agree" each time we install something, and if we
don't agree we should not install and go into negotiation with the author to
try and overcome our problem with the license. This of course also applies
to rediculous pricing for some software -- we shouldn't buy it and complain
about it, or just complain about it, no, we should raise our voices and get
the authors to be fair and ask a reasonable price (i.e. JAWS).
Oh and last, last point. Everyone feeling so very strongly about free
software and the horrors of having to have to pay for the re-using of
something you've already paid for should not neglect to at least pay a
little for all that you enjoy for free by means of a donation.
As I've written before, just imagine if all of us took just 10% of what we
fork out for assistive technology and donate that to guys developing quality
free stuff. Just imagine (i.e. NVDA).
Regards,
Kerneels
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:46 AM, black ares
<matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> Hello,
> 1. When I get a software, I want it to work today, not tomorrow, not in 3
> mounth when "the comunity" will probably solve part of the bugs to make that
> piece of software ussable.
> 2. Yes, the bugs are fixed faster in "comunity" maintained software,
> because there are a lot of them and 99% of them are stupid bugs, like
> compilation errors, integration errors, library missing errors, or other
> beautyfull like errors that characterise a poor written, never tested
> software.
> On the other hand, the payd software often is in a company, where there are
> quality assurance departaments, which test the software in a organised
> manner and even there bugs escape out, but in a non controlled world like
> open source.
> How ever, when I pay a software it will probably do most of its
> functionality out of the box.
> The freee software are giving a stupid excuse "what do you want, you get it
> for free,you don't like go and buy one of payed software, or pay us to
> repair it".
> So I don't understand why, if people climes out for free, what they offer
> this excuse.
> Like I get a piece of a car for free, it doesn't work, but I must be happy
> with it because I get it for free.
> 3. I will never try to stop cracking of software. More over I will be happy
> in the day when my software gets cracked, because that means that my softwae
> is a realy valuable one and people need it.
> I know that a lot of people will use it with crack, but there will be a lot
> of people which will buy it.
> Does Microsoft got bancrupcy because half of a world uses windows with
> crack?
> More than that I see cracks like a form of advertising.
> Some time ago, when I was poor and because in my country there are not real
> social programs to help us aford necessary things for a disabled people,
> I've used windows and jaws with crack.
> When I've got money, what software do you think I bought?
> Have I bought MACOX, or Have I bought Windows Eye?
> Not, for sure, I've bought windows, because I was familiar with it and I've
> bought jaws (even the windows eye was cheaper), because I was familiar with
> it.
> I think that all companies know that there are people out there that can
> not buy their software because they have not money
> and they know if they force buying only their software there will be a lot
> of people switching to another piece of software.
> On the other hand they can not offer their software at a lower price or for
> free, because existing customers will get angry, so they accept
> in silence, the cracking behavior as an advertising.
> So I think that none of the companies, realy fights against cracking, but
> they must keep it like they do.
> And also, this fight, makes people to buy the software, when they got
> enough money.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Storm Dragon <stormdragon2976@xxxxxxxxx>
> *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:55 PM
> *Subject:* RE: Paying for Open source was Eloquence with NVDA
>
> Hi,
> Yes, I had heard something about the loops thing before. One thing about
> community maintained software is that bugs get fixed much faster. Also, as I
> said earlier, sure some people will grab the free instead of paying a
> reasonable price. It's just a fact of life, those are the same people who
> would take the paper cups left at some water fountains for folks in wheel
> chairs. These people would also be the same people to crack your proprietary
> software and use it without paying. So all that effort you spent keeping
> them out... wasted. And honestly, if your locks can't keep out the people
> who crack it... oh well lol. At least if you just ask for a small fee and
> don't inforce it with some kind of license key requirement, their concience
> may bother them for using it for free. Also, som people really don't have
> the money to pay. I would much rather a family have food to eat than to get
> $10 for a program I wrote that they need.
> Storm
> --
>
> Registered Linux user number 508465:http://counter.li.org/
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:http://www.stormdragon.us/
> Follow me on Twitter:http://www.twitter.com/stormdragon2976
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2010-11-23 at 12:28 -0500, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> wrote:
>
> I will leave this thread with only two comments:
> 1) Code checks were done on Windows xp and it was found the primary
> reason for the code bloat in that version of the operating system was
> improperly terminated loops. Those that did the study of XP concluded
> that if all improperly terminated loops were fixed, the whole operating
> system could run on any computer with 640K of memory. 2) The Federal
> Government is using open source software and operating systems to the
> extent it is for one very simple reason, in those instances where the
> enemy software and operating systems get used it's because windows in no
> known version can get the jobs done that need doing.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of black ares
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:26
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Paying for Open source was Eloquence with NVDA
>
> Alex,
> it is no so easy.
> I am a full time developer and I live from what I develop.
> So If I make my code all open source for free, with what should I buy my
>
> food and other necesary things?
> More over, we are humans not machines.
> So we have motivation, pleasures, problems and so on and we need money
> for
> all this things.
> Look at all open source code out there, it is not a quality software.
> And even linux, yes, Linux is not so good as windows.
> I tried installing linux on my laptop, It took me 3 mounth to configure
> all
> things and to get them working some what.
> But guess what, there are still problems.
> For example when I connect my headphones to my laptop, the volume
> doesn't
> work any more in fedora and the sound is at the maximum level.
> On ubunt on the other hand, the volume works, but when I plug the
> headphones, the speakers are not muted so sound comes out from
> headphones
> and from the speaker.
> On other workstations the wireless does not work, and so on.
> I am a good computer profesional, but imagine an average user trying to
> pass
> trough all problems I had.
>
> So open source, with all my consideration is poor software.
> No testing, no code control (every one works as he wants, resulting bad
> architectures, lac of performance etc).
>
> So, to make a comparison as you have done:
> If some one ofers me a car for free, but that car has problem with its
> engine
> and another car for some money, but it works ok, I prefer the second
> one.
> How ever, the open source comunity has realised that it can not live
> with
> out money and they don't want to recognise that.
> So they say that they ofer open source software, but if you look better
> you see that what you get is a buggy, stupid code and if you want that
> bugs
> repaired you must buy a subscription.
> I fill in that moment some what like I have been lied.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Paying for Open source was Eloquence with NVDA
>
>
> Hi,
>
> You can't make a living like that. Why would any sane person pay for
> what they could get for free? Let me ask you, if you had a choice
> between going to a free luncheon and going out and paying for exactly
> the same food being served at your luncheon, would you do it? I
> wouldn't. The way to make a living in Open Source is customization.
> You get hired to customize the software they downloaded for free to
> their specifications. This is seriously risky stuff. They have to 1,
> like your software and 2, pick you to do the scustomizing instead of
> some other coder who can read your source code and do it for you. I
> would write open source software if it was something I wanted to make
> available to the community at large. I would do it because I wanted
> to do it as an act of good will to others. I would not do it to make
> a living. I'm seriously convinced that I would starve. I might be
> missing something but I just have no idea how one can make a decent
> living at such unless I make a deal with some ad company and insert
> spyware into my code that snoops on my users. That is something I am
> virulently opposed to. I think it's wrong. Either you make something
> for free or you don't. And you don't sneak onto people's machines and
> spy on what they do with them. That is their business and should be
> private. Now, I might pay for added features. If I find an open
> source software out there and someone wrote a feature pack for it to
> supe it up, I'd buy that. Perhaps that is a way to make a living on
> it though I think gpl keeps you from writing proprietary code based on
> open source code. I don't know for sure.
>
> Now, I could make a serious killing on Open Source by pre-installing
> a bunch of it on a computer I was selling. Elf, do you/would you do
> this? It would be a good way to include some nice features onto a
> machine. Pre-install something like Ubuntu with accessibility like
> what Vinux does and then put a bunch of useful stuff on there. Or,
> with Windows, put a bunch of useful open source apps on there. You
> could slash the price of the Linux machine by about a hundred bucks or
> so and still make a nice profit because you wouldn't be pre-purchasing
> all the stuff that you had to install on the machine. This model
> still doesn't let me as a programmer make money on the open source
> stuff that was pre-installed, however.
>
> Alex M
> stormdragon2976@xxxxxxxxx> Wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
> I think open source is the best, in deed the only way to go. Just
> because it's open source doesn't mean it has to be free as in "free
> beer".
> I wonder if anyone has tried making a program that is open source and
> charging like $10 or so for it? If the price isn't stupid I am sure
> people, most people, would pay for it. You'd always have people
> distributing free copies, but that happens with nonfree software anyway.
> Lol I may try it myself one day. Does anyone know if there is a license
> that permits distributing modifications of the software only to people
> who have purchased the software? I don't think I would use such a thing
> myself, because I would want anyone, no matter how poor they may be, to
> be able to use my software if they want. Just curious if it exists.
> Storm
> --
> Registered Linux user number 508465:http://counter.li.org/
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:http://www.stormdragon.us/
> Get yourself a Frostbox:http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>
>
>
>
> On 11/23/10, FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > programmingblind Digest Mon, 22 Nov 2010 Volume: 04 Issue: 339
> >
> > In This Issue:
> > asp.net help required
> > Re: A delicate issue with the windows command prompt
> > Re: asp.net help required
> > Re: asp.net help required
> > Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> > Excel Question: Looking At OLE Objects
> > RE: NVDA new voice?
> > Excel And JAWS Question
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: Excel And JAWS Question
> > RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Excel Events
> > Re: Excel Events
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 13:04:08 +0530
> > Subject: asp.net help required
> > From: ishaq muhammad <sendmailtoishaq@xxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > Hello all,
> > I am a new member of this list.
> > I am 100 percent blind.
> >
> > i was successfully doing some basic application with c# and now I am
> > required to develop a website in asp.net.
> > it's the first project that i have started developing and I am getting
> > problem.
> > Can someone please tell me how to work with designer window inasp.net?
> > For example, I want to make a simple page with few textboxes and a
> button.
> > I am able to invoke toolbox by alt+ctrl+x that I was doing in c#
> > windows application as well, but when adding several controls, I am
> > not able to open their code behind windows.
> > In c# windows application, I used to press tab, and jaws used to
> > announce the name of the control, pressing enter on which used to take
> > me in the code window of that control.
> > It's not happening here.
> > It says nothing when I press tab, shift+tab, enter or any other key in
> > designer window.
> > Even if I press f7 to go in the code window, only the code for
> > page_load is written.
> > I am sure that the controls have been successfully added on the page,
> > because they are visible if I compile and run it on browser.
> >
> > I wonder, where has the code for textboxes, buttons and other control
> > gone?
> >
> > i am so worried, is it not possible for me to work with asp.net?
> > I heard that its doable, how do you do it?
> >
> > I have jaws version 10 with scripts for vs.net, and vs.net 2008.
> >
> >
> > Ishaq.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Hamid Hamraz" <hhamraz@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: A delicate issue with the windows command prompt
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:18:52 +0330
> >
> > mine is 32 bit.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ken Perry
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:21 AM
> > Subject: RE: A delicate issue with the windows command prompt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Are you using 32 bit or 64 bit windows. Jaws 11 and 12 works fine
> with
> > the cmd in 64 bit if you don't mind it repeating the whole line every
> time
> > you delete a character. I have told FS of this and while they fixed
> part
> > of
> > the problem I told them about the repeat is still a problem when
> deleting.
> >
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Hamid
> Hamraz
> > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:25 PM
> > To: jfw list; B-programming
> > Subject: A delicate issue with the windows command prompt
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi folks,
> >
> >
> >
> > I have run into an issue in command prompt which bothers me while
> using
> > the tools that are accessible via the windows command line, such as
> the
> > CMD
> > itself, python interactive interpreter and so on. when the command box
>
> > fills
> > up with the stuff and it starts scrolling down for the new lines to be
> > appeared, I noticed that the backspace, when pressed, Jaws reads the
> > character to the left of the cursor's above line (instead of the
> cursor's
> > current line), though the backspace is doing what is expected to do.
> For
> > the
> > command line, the CLS command clears the screen and it is a decent
> quick
> > fix. However for python and also the other tools I am not so sure of
> such
> > a
> > command/fix. Now I want to find out if this issue is present in any
> other
> > variants of this combination: XP SP3 and Jaws 10. Besides, I
> appreciate
> > any
> > suggestions or comments on how to resolve this issue.
> >
> >
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Hamid
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacobk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: asp.net help required
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:54:26 +0200
> >
> > I would generally work in the page markup, since the intellisense will
> > prompt you with html elements, and markup attributes, etc. and you can
> > mostly also add event attributes like this and then right click there
> and
> > tell it to go to/generate the code behind etc. - but don't work in
> this
> > too
> > often, so you might still need to play around with it a bit.
> >
> > Stay well
> >
> > Jacob Kruger
> > Blind Biker
> > Skype: BlindZA
> > '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "ishaq muhammad" <sendmailtoishaq@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:34 AM
> > Subject: asp.net help required
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> > I am a new member of this list.
> > I am 100 percent blind.
> >
> > i was successfully doing some basic application with c# and now I am
> > required to develop a website in asp.net.
> > it's the first project that i have started developing and I am getting
> > problem.
> > Can someone please tell me how to work with designer window inasp.net?
> > For example, I want to make a simple page with few textboxes and a
> button.
> > I am able to invoke toolbox by alt+ctrl+x that I was doing in c#
> > windows application as well, but when adding several controls, I am
> > not able to open their code behind windows.
> > In c# windows application, I used to press tab, and jaws used to
> > announce the name of the control, pressing enter on which used to take
> > me in the code window of that control.
> > It's not happening here.
> > It says nothing when I press tab, shift+tab, enter or any other key in
> > designer window.
> > Even if I press f7 to go in the code window, only the code for
> > page_load is written.
> > I am sure that the controls have been successfully added on the page,
> > because they are visible if I compile and run it on browser.
> >
> > I wonder, where has the code for textboxes, buttons and other control
> > gone?
> >
> > i am so worried, is it not possible for me to work with asp.net?
> > I heard that its doable, how do you do it?
> >
> > I have jaws version 10 with scripts for vs.net, and vs.net 2008.
> >
> >
> > Ishaq.
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> > signature
> > database 5637 (20101121) __________
> >
> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> >
> > http://www.eset.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> > signature
> > database 5637 (20101121) __________
> >
> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> >
> > http://www.eset.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "RicksPlace" <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: asp.net help required
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:10:04 -0500
> >
> > Hi: The designer in the VS, or VWD, IDE is diferent from the one you
> use
> > when working in CSharp or VB,.net or other file types like xml or sql
> or
> > even txt. It is not very accessible. For that reason most folks do
> work
> > with their html and native Form Elements like ListBoxes or TextBoxes
> > etc...
> > in the html Editor. In there you can bring up the ToolBox as you
> mentioned
> > and drop ASP.net controls or html directly into the Code Editor. You
> can
> > use
> > Intellisense and you can highlight the first few characters on a
> llline
> > then
> > bring up the Designer and then the properties window or any
> combinition of
> > that to get to the Events for that particular control. There are other
>
> > ways
> > of working on controls you drop into the Code for the page but they
> are
> > all
> > explained and demonstrated in some tutorials already out there for VWD
>
> > 2008
> > and 2005.
> > The process is to add a Webpage to your project, then open the html
> editor
> > for the page, drop some controls on the page and set their properties
> in
> > the
> > properties window. Then Use any technique to access the events you
> want to
> > add to any of those controls and then code the csharp to implement the
> > functionallity you desire. As I mentioned you can be in the either the
>
> > html
> > editor or the code editor, hit a hot key combinition, I forget it off
> the
> > top of my head, and have a list of the controls on the page come up in
> a
> > ListBox. You highlight the control you want to work with, tab to
> another
> > ListBox and in that one you have a list of all the possible events for
> the
> > selected control. Hit enter and that event is added to the Code Behind
> > Subroutuine for that event. That is only one way to do it. You can get
> nto
> > the properties window from the designer and then you can tab to a list
> of
> > events for a selected control and hit enter to do the same. There is
> > another
> > method but I forget it. Anyway, read through the StarTrek Tutorials if
> you
> > can find them just to get an idea of some of the hot keys and methods
> that
> > worked for me while building a couple of Websites. I did them in
> ASP.net,
> > VWD, and Sql Server Express using VB.net as the language.
> > Rick USA
> > ASP.net IDE Generator and Editor
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacobk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 AM
> > Subject: Re: asp.net help required
> >
> >
> >>I would generally work in the page markup, since the intellisense will
> >>prompt you with html elements, and markup attributes, etc. and you can
> >>mostly also add event attributes like this and then right click there
> and
> >>tell it to go to/generate the code behind etc. - but don't work in
> this
> >>too
> >>
> >>often, so you might still need to play around with it a bit.
> >>
> >> Stay well
> >>
> >> Jacob Kruger
> >> Blind Biker
> >> Skype: BlindZA
> >> '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "ishaq muhammad" <sendmailtoishaq@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:34 AM
> >> Subject: asp.net help required
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello all,
> >> I am a new member of this list.
> >> I am 100 percent blind.
> >>
> >> i was successfully doing some basic application with c# and now I am
> >> required to develop a website in asp.net.
> >> it's the first project that i have started developing and I am
> getting
> >> problem.
> >> Can someone please tell me how to work with designer window inasp.net?
> >> For example, I want to make a simple page with few textboxes and a
> >> button.
> >> I am able to invoke toolbox by alt+ctrl+x that I was doing in c#
> >> windows application as well, but when adding several controls, I am
> >> not able to open their code behind windows.
> >> In c# windows application, I used to press tab, and jaws used to
> >> announce the name of the control, pressing enter on which used to
> take
> >> me in the code window of that control.
> >> It's not happening here.
> >> It says nothing when I press tab, shift+tab, enter or any other key
> in
> >> designer window.
> >> Even if I press f7 to go in the code window, only the code for
> >> page_load is written.
> >> I am sure that the controls have been successfully added on the page,
> >> because they are visible if I compile and run it on browser.
> >>
> >> I wonder, where has the code for textboxes, buttons and other control
> >> gone?
> >>
> >> i am so worried, is it not possible for me to work with asp.net?
> >> I heard that its doable, how do you do it?
> >>
> >> I have jaws version 10 with scripts for vs.net, and vs.net 2008.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ishaq.
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >>
> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> >> signature database 5637 (20101121) __________
> >>
> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> >>
> >> http://www.eset.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> >> signature database 5637 (20101121) __________
> >>
> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> >>
> >> http://www.eset.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:57:19 -0600
> > Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
> > what is driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
> > Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same product
> > is just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
> > commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
> >
> > You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
> > toast in it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker
> > company calls you up to yell at you saying that you only had the right
> > to make toast with their product and you must cease and desist your
> > making of ego waffles with their toaster immediatly because you didn't
> > buy the toaster, you bought the right to use the toaster for making
> > toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast it'd make that company's head
> > spin. You try that with any other product and you'd get the same
> > result from consumers. It simply boggles me that software can be
> > restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze so much
> > juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user in
> > such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff you
> > licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind
> > that there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I was
> > IBM I'd be looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for
> > all uses and cash in instead of deciding that it can only be used for
> > one thing and leave it at the discretion of resellers like Freedom
> > Scientific and their sort. I'd market it as: "Our synthesizer is so
> > powerful it can be used for the following things: " (Long, exhaustive
> > list follows ...)
> >
> > I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to which
> > he carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a penny
> > to the writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software
> > is far too restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The
> > software was paid for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally
> > obtained. For another program to use that software just keeps it in
> > the market as a viable product. Keeping other programs from using it
> > ultimately results in loss of viability. What is so hard to
> > understand about this?
> >
> > Alex M
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:27:02 -0500
> > Subject: Excel Question: Looking At OLE Objects
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have an Excel spreadsheet that has two OLE objects. How do I examine
>
> > them?
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Jim Homme,
> > Usability Services,
> > Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> > Internal recipients, Read my accessibility
> > blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> > Discuss accessibility
> >
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default
> .aspx>.
> > Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> >
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Acces
> sibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> > solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If
> > you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> > immediately
> > and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> > keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> > prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> > necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> > affiliates.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Aubertin, Gerry" <gaubertin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:43:37 -0800
> > Subject: RE: NVDA new voice?
> >
> > Eileen:
> > I only caught up with my programming blind stuff this morning, so I
> > didn't have a chance to respond to your message earlier. Here is what
> I
> > think you want.
> >
> > http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >
> > The Svox Pico voice is perhaps what you want. I have it and I like
> it.
> > Just make sure you read the installation instructions carefully as
> they
> > are
> > a bit brief. Let me know if you have any problems.
> >
> >
> > Gerry Aubertin
> > Programmer/Analyst
> > Phone: (519) 271-4840 Ext. 8807
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE - The contents of this message and the
> attachments
> > are confidential and are for the exclusive use of the intended
> > recipient(s).
> > If you are not an intended recipient, please immediately delete it
> without
> > reading it and without further distribution or disclosure. Any
> further
> > distribution of this message to others is subject to this
> Confidentiality
> > Notice and/or any confidentiality agreement or non-disclosure
> agreement in
> > effect that covers the information contained in the message and any
> > attachments.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lafond, Eileen
> > [Eileen.Lafond@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 4:33 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: NVDA new voice?
> >
> > Hi,
> > There was a thread on this list a few months ago about NVDA. I
> thought
> > that
> > I had read that there is a way to change the voice? I am checking the
> > usability of NVDA out now on a computer at work and would like to have
> a
> > voice that is a little more understandable.
> >
> > Can anyone help?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Eileen La fond
> > Work phone: (206) 386-0011
> > email: eileen.lafond@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:33:57 -0500
> > Subject: Excel And JAWS Question
> >
> > Hi,
> > With JAWS 11 I have an Excel spreadsheet. The sheet is a 2003
> workbook.
> > I'm
> > viewing it in Excel 2007. JAWS tells me that it sees three embedded
> > objects.
> > I know that at least one of them is a drop down box. I want to see the
> > properties of the one that's a dropdown box. How do I do that? When I
> get
> > JAWS to land on it, it seems to say that it is blank. Perhaps the
> first
> > entry is blank.
> > I can't share the sheet. It's proprietary.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Jim Homme,
> > Usability Services,
> > Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> > Internal recipients, Read my accessibility
> > blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> > Discuss accessibility
> >
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default
> .aspx>.
> > Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> >
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Acces
> sibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> > solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If
> > you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> > immediately
> > and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> > keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> > prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> > necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> > affiliates.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:51:32 -0800
> >
> > that's what I thought, thank you
> >
> > elf
> > Moderator, Blind Access Help
> > Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> > Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> > - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> > www.alacorncomputer.com
> > proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> > for blind computer users and programmers
> > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> Hello,
> >> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer
> on
> >> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >> present
> >>
> >> your legal analysis.
> >> Best,
> >> Dennis
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>computer
> >>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
> >>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
> >>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software on
> >>>> a
> >>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it
> is
> >>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>> controled by
> >>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
> this
> >>>> not
> >>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> files
> >>>> in
> >>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>> programs
> >>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found
> a
> >>>> choice
> >>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed. I
> >>>> have
> >>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>
> >>>> some
> >>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> donating
> >>>> to
> >>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>> backup
> >>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>> minutes
> >>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>> for
> >>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
> >>>> screen
> >>>> reader.
> >>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys
> to
> >>>> get
> >>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
> But
> >>>> open
> >>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
> If
> >>>> each
> >>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> people
> >>>> who
> >>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
> sold
> >>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be
> a
> >>>> lot
> >>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> business
> >>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>> money.
> >>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>> to
> >>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> things
> >>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
> use
> >>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
> its
> >>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
> >>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> euros,
> >>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
> >>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to
> pay
> >>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application it
> >>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
> nvda
> >>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
> IBM,
> >>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
> they
> >>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
> >>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> software
> >>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game
> to
> >>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence I
> >>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> software.
> >>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece
> of
> >>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
> >>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> paid.
> >>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
> >>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
> say
> >>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
> >>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and
> I
> >>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute a
> >>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
> >>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on
> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
> >>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Ty
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:06:44 -0500
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >
> > Hi Elf,
> > You might want to see this page.
> >
> > http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >
> > Jim Homme,
> > Usability Services,
> > Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> > Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> > here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> > that's what I thought, thank you
> >
> > elf
> > Moderator, Blind Access Help
> > Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> > Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> > - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> > www.alacorncomputer.com
> > proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> > for blind computer users and programmers
> > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> Hello,
> >> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer
> on
> >> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >> present
> >> your legal analysis.
> >> Best,
> >> Dennis
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>computer
> >>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
> >>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
> >>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software on
> >>>> a
> >>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it
> is
> >>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>> controled by
> >>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
> this
> >>>> not
> >>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> files
> >>>> in
> >>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>> programs
> >>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found
> a
> >>>> choice
> >>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed. I
> >>>> have
> >>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>
> >>>> some
> >>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> donating
> >>>> to
> >>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>> backup
> >>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>> minutes
> >>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>> for
> >>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
> >>>> screen
> >>>> reader.
> >>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys
> to
> >>>> get
> >>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
> But
> >>>> open
> >>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
> If
> >>>> each
> >>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> people
> >>>> who
> >>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
> sold
> >>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be
> a
> >>>> lot
> >>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> business
> >>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>> money.
> >>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>> to
> >>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> things
> >>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
> use
> >>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
> its
> >>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
> >>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> euros,
> >>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
> >>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to
> pay
> >>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application it
> >>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
> nvda
> >>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
> IBM,
> >>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
> they
> >>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
> >>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> software
> >>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game
> to
> >>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence I
> >>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> software.
> >>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece
> of
> >>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
> >>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> paid.
> >>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
> >>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
> say
> >>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
> >>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and
> I
> >>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute a
> >>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
> >>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on
> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
> >>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Ty
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> > This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> > solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If
> > you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> > immediately
> > and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> > keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> > prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> > necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> > affiliates.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Don Marang" <donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: Excel And JAWS Question
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:15:41 -0500
> >
> > of objects on the sheet. I think pressing Enter on the entry in the
> list
> > takes you to the cell where it is embedded and opens it.
> > Anyone know how to delete these objects? I accedently copied more
> than
> > just
> > text from a website and ended up with several objects on the page.
> >
> > Don Marang
> >
> > There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any
>
> > real
> > substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am
> > working
> > on things that matter.
> > Dean Kamen
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Homme, James
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:33 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Excel And JAWS Question
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > With JAWS 11 I have an Excel spreadsheet. The sheet is a 2003
> workbook.
> > I'm
> > viewing it in Excel 2007. JAWS tells me that it sees three embedded
> > objects.
> > I know that at least one of them is a drop down box. I want to see the
> > properties of the one that's a dropdown box. How do I do that? When I
> get
> > JAWS to land on it, it seems to say that it is blank. Perhaps the
> first
> > entry is blank.
> >
> >
> >
> > I can't share the sheet. It's proprietary.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Homme,
> >
> > Usability Services,
> >
> > Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >
> > Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> > here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> > solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If
> > you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> > immediately
> > and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> > keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> > prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> > necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> > affiliates.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:18:01 -0500
> >
> > The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
> > purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> > So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should
> be
> > fine.
> >
> > H.R. Soltani
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> James
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> > Hi Elf,
> > You might want to see this page.
> >
> > http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >
> > Jim Homme,
> > Usability Services,
> > Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> > Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> > here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> > that's what I thought, thank you
> >
> > elf
> > Moderator, Blind Access Help
> > Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> > Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> > - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> > www.alacorncomputer.com
> > proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> > for blind computer users and programmers
> > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> Hello,
> >> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer
> on
> >> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >> present
> >> your legal analysis.
> >> Best,
> >> Dennis
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>computer
> >>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
> >>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
> >>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software on
> >>>> a
> >>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it
> is
> >>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>> controled by
> >>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
> this
> >>>> not
> >>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> files
> >>>> in
> >>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>> programs
> >>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found
> a
> >>>> choice
> >>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed. I
> >>>> have
> >>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>
> >>>> some
> >>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> donating
> >>>> to
> >>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>> backup
> >>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>> minutes
> >>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>> for
> >>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
> >>>> screen
> >>>> reader.
> >>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys
> to
> >>>> get
> >>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
> But
> >>>> open
> >>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
> If
> >>>> each
> >>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> people
> >>>> who
> >>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
> sold
> >>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be
> a
> >>>> lot
> >>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> business
> >>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>> money.
> >>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>> to
> >>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> things
> >>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
> use
> >>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
> its
> >>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
> >>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> euros,
> >>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
> >>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to
> pay
> >>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application it
> >>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
> nvda
> >>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
> IBM,
> >>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
> they
> >>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
> >>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> software
> >>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game
> to
> >>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence I
> >>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> software.
> >>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece
> of
> >>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
> >>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> paid.
> >>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
> >>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
> say
> >>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
> >>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and
> I
> >>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute a
> >>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
> >>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on
> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
> >>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Ty
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> > This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> > solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If
> > you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> > immediately
> > and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> > keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> > prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> > necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> > affiliates.
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:31:13 -0800
> >
> > loud applause, and I agree
> >
> > elf
> > Moderator, Blind Access Help
> > Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> > Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> > - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> > www.alacorncomputer.com
> > proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> > for blind computer users and programmers
> > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:57 AM
> > Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> >
> >
> >> This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
> >> what is driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
> >> Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same
> product
> >> is just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
> >> commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
> >>
> >> You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
> >> toast in it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker
> >> company calls you up to yell at you saying that you only had the
> right
> >> to make toast with their product and you must cease and desist your
> >> making of ego waffles with their toaster immediatly because you
> didn't
> >> buy the toaster, you bought the right to use the toaster for making
> >> toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast it'd make that company's head
> >> spin. You try that with any other product and you'd get the same
> >> result from consumers. It simply boggles me that software can be
> >> restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze so much
> >> juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user
> in
> >> such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff you
> >> licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind
> >> that there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I
> was
> >> IBM I'd be looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for
> >> all uses and cash in instead of deciding that it can only be used for
> >> one thing and leave it at the discretion of resellers like Freedom
> >> Scientific and their sort. I'd market it as: "Our synthesizer is so
> >> powerful it can be used for the following things: " (Long,
> exhaustive
> >> list follows ...)
> >>
> >> I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to
> which
> >> he carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a
> penny
> >> to the writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software
> >> is far too restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The
> >> software was paid for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally
> >> obtained. For another program to use that software just keeps it in
> >> the market as a viable product. Keeping other programs from using it
> >> ultimately results in loss of viability. What is so hard to
> >> understand about this?
> >>
> >> Alex M
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:58:38 -0500
> > Subject: Excel Events
> >
> > Hi,
> > Does anyone know if an Excel event fires when you hit Alt + Down Arrow
> in
> > a
> > cell?
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Jim Homme,
> > Usability Services,
> > Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> > Internal recipients, Read my accessibility
> > blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> > Discuss accessibility
> >
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default
> .aspx>.
> > Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> >
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Acces
> sibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> > solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If
> > you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> > immediately
> > and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> > keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> > prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> > necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> > affiliates.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Martin Slack" <m.g.slack@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: Excel Events
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:46:48 -0000
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > This list:
> >
> >http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/excel-shortcut-and-function
> -keys-HP010073848.aspx
> >
> > includes alt + down arrow, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the
> result
> > is
> > context dependent.
> >
> > hth
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:58 PM
> > Subject: Excel Events
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > Does anyone know if an Excel event fires when you hit Alt + Down Arrow
> in
> > a
> > cell?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Jim Homme,
> > Usability Services,
> > Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> > Internal recipients, Read my accessibility
> > blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> > Discuss accessibility
> >
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default
> .aspx>.
> > Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> >
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Acces
> sibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> > solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If
> > you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> > immediately
> > and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> > keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> > prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> > necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> > affiliates.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > From: Storm Dragon <stormdragon2976@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:38:23 -0500
> >
> > Hi,
> > I think open source is the best, in deed the only way to go. Just
> > because it's open source doesn't mean it has to be free as in "free
> > beer".
> > I wonder if anyone has tried making a program that is open source and
> > charging like $10 or so for it? If the price isn't stupid I am sure
> > people, most people, would pay for it. You'd always have people
> > distributing free copies, but that happens with nonfree software
> anyway.
> > Lol I may try it myself one day. Does anyone know if there is a
> license
> > that permits distributing modifications of the software only to people
> > who have purchased the software? I don't think I would use such a
> thing
> > myself, because I would want anyone, no matter how poor they may be,
> to
> > be able to use my software if they want. Just curious if it exists.
> > Storm
> > --
> > Registered Linux user number 508465:
> > http://counter.li.org/
> > My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
> > http://www.stormdragon.us/
> > Get yourself a Frostbox:
> > http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 11:31 -0800, The Elf wrote:
> >
> >> loud applause, and I agree
> >>
> >> elf
> >> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >> for blind computer users and programmers
> >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:57 AM
> >> Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> n
> >>
> >>
> >> > This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
> >> > what is driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
> >> > Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same
> product
> >> > is just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No
> other
> >> > commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
> >> >
> >> > You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
> >> > toast in it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker
> >> > company calls you up to yell at you saying that you only had the
> right
> >> > to make toast with their product and you must cease and desist your
> >> > making of ego waffles with their toaster immediatly because you
> didn't
> >> > buy the toaster, you bought the right to use the toaster for making
> >> > toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast it'd make that company's
> head
> >> > spin. You try that with any other product and you'd get the same
> >> > result from consumers. It simply boggles me that software can be
> >> > restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze so
> much
> >> > juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user
> in
> >> > such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff
> you
> >> > licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never
> mind
> >> > that there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I
> was
> >> > IBM I'd be looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code
> for
> >> > all uses and cash in instead of deciding that it can only be used
> for
> >> > one thing and leave it at the discretion of resellers like Freedom
> >> > Scientific and their sort. I'd market it as: "Our synthesizer is
> so
> >> > powerful it can be used for the following things: " (Long,
> exhaustive
> >> > list follows ...)
> >> >
> >> > I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to
> which
> >> > he carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a
> penny
> >> > to the writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of
> software
> >> > is far too restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case.
> The
> >> > software was paid for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally
> >> > obtained. For another program to use that software just keeps it
> in
> >> > the market as a viable product. Keeping other programs from using
> it
> >> > ultimately results in loss of viability. What is so hard to
> >> > understand about this?
> >> >
> >> > Alex M
> >> > __________
> >> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >> >
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:41:53 -0800
> >
> > yes and I know a game had permission to include eloquence in it,
> grins.
> >
> > elf
> > Moderator, Blind Access Help
> > Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> > Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> > - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> > www.alacorncomputer.com
> > proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> > for blind computer users and programmers
> > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:18 AM
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
> >> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should
> be
> >> fine.
> >>
> >> H.R. Soltani
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> James
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> Hi Elf,
> >> You might want to see this page.
> >>
> >> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>
> >> Jim Homme,
> >> Usability Services,
> >> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> >> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>
> >> elf
> >> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >> for blind computer users and programmers
> >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer on
> >>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >>> present
> >>> your legal analysis.
> >>> Best,
> >>> Dennis
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>computer
> >>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
> >>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it
> is
> >>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>> controled by
> >>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> >>>>> files
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>> programs
> >>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found
> a
> >>>>> choice
> >>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should
> be
> >>>>> some
> >>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>> donating
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>>> backup
> >>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>>> minutes
> >>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
> >>>>> screen
> >>>>> reader.
> >>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys
> to
> >>>>> get
> >>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>
> >>>>> But
> >>>>> open
> >>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
> If
> >>>>> each
> >>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> who
> >>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>
> >>>>> sold
> >>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be
> a
> >>>>> lot
> >>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> business
> >>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>>> money.
> >>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> >>>>>> things
> >>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
> use
> >>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
> its
> >>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
> >>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> euros,
> >>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
> >>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing
> to
> >>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>
> >>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>
> >>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
> >>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game to
> >>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>
> >>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece
> of
> >>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
> say
> >>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on
> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal
> ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
> >>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Ty
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >>
> >> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> >> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >> If
> >> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >> immediately
> >> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> >> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> >> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
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> or
> >> affiliates.
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:44:22 -0800
> >
> > I see nothing to do with this other than a list of a few alternative
> > synthesizers, half of them aren't able to handle English, and the ages
> old
> > TTS from good old MS,
> >
> > I don't get the point?
> >
> > elf
> > Moderator, Blind Access Help
> > Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> > Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> > - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> > www.alacorncomputer.com
> > proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> > for blind computer users and programmers
> > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:18 AM
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
> >> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should
> be
> >> fine.
> >>
> >> H.R. Soltani
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> James
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> Hi Elf,
> >> You might want to see this page.
> >>
> >> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>
> >> Jim Homme,
> >> Usability Services,
> >> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> >> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>
> >> elf
> >> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >> for blind computer users and programmers
> >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer on
> >>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >>> present
> >>> your legal analysis.
> >>> Best,
> >>> Dennis
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>computer
> >>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
> >>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it
> is
> >>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>> controled by
> >>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> >>>>> files
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>> programs
> >>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found
> a
> >>>>> choice
> >>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should
> be
> >>>>> some
> >>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>> donating
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>>> backup
> >>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>>> minutes
> >>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
> >>>>> screen
> >>>>> reader.
> >>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys
> to
> >>>>> get
> >>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>
> >>>>> But
> >>>>> open
> >>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
> If
> >>>>> each
> >>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> who
> >>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>
> >>>>> sold
> >>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be
> a
> >>>>> lot
> >>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> business
> >>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>>> money.
> >>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> >>>>>> things
> >>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
> use
> >>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
> its
> >>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
> >>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> euros,
> >>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
> >>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing
> to
> >>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>
> >>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>
> >>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
> >>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game to
> >>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>
> >>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece
> of
> >>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
> say
> >>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on
> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal
> ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
> >>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Ty
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >>
> >> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> >> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >> If
> >> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >> immediately
> >> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> >> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> >> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> >> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries,
> or
> >> affiliates.
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Katherine Moss" <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:27:59 -0500
> >
> > Most of that is the fault of Freedom Scientific those greedy people
> who
> > know
> > no limits of what they charge.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Alex
> Midence
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 AM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> >
> > This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
> what is
> > driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
> > Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same product
> is
> > just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
> > commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
> >
> > You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
> toast in
> > it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker company
> calls
> > you
> > up to yell at you saying that you only had the right to make toast
> with
> > their product and you must cease and desist your making of ego waffles
>
> > with
> > their toaster immediatly because you didn't buy the toaster, you
> bought
> > the
> > right to use the toaster for making toast. I'd chunk that toaster so
> fast
> > it'd make that company's head spin. You try that with any other
> product
> > and
> > you'd get the same result from consumers. It simply boggles me that
> > software can be restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only
> > squeeze
> > so much juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the
>
> > user
> > in such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff
> you
> > licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind
> that
> > there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I was IBM
> I'd
> > be
> > looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for all uses and
>
> > cash
> > in instead of deciding that it can only be used for one thing and
> leave it
> > at the discretion of resellers like Freedom Scientific and their sort.
>
> > I'd
> > market it as: "Our synthesizer is so powerful it can be used for the
> > following things: " (Long, exhaustive list follows ...)
> >
> > I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to which
> he
> > carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a penny to
> the
> > writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software is far
> too
> > restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The software
> was
> > paid
> > for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally obtained. For another
> > program to use that software just keeps it in the market as a viable
> > product. Keeping other programs from using it ultimately results in
> loss
> > of
> > viability. What is so hard to understand about this?
> >
> > Alex M
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Howard Traxler" <htraxler2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:28:12 -0600
> >
> > So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat
> the
> > list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell
>
> > nvda
> > that it's on the machine?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Howard
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
> >> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should
> be
> >> fine.
> >>
> >> H.R. Soltani
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> James
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> Hi Elf,
> >> You might want to see this page.
> >>
> >> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>
> >> Jim Homme,
> >> Usability Services,
> >> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> >> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>
> >> elf
> >> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >> for blind computer users and programmers
> >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer on
> >>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >>> present
> >>> your legal analysis.
> >>> Best,
> >>> Dennis
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>computer
> >>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
> >>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it
> is
> >>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>> controled by
> >>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> >>>>> files
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>> programs
> >>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found
> a
> >>>>> choice
> >>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should
> be
> >>>>> some
> >>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>> donating
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>>> backup
> >>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>>> minutes
> >>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
> >>>>> screen
> >>>>> reader.
> >>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys
> to
> >>>>> get
> >>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>
> >>>>> But
> >>>>> open
> >>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
> If
> >>>>> each
> >>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> who
> >>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>
> >>>>> sold
> >>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be
> a
> >>>>> lot
> >>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> business
> >>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>>> money.
> >>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> >>>>>> things
> >>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
> use
> >>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
> its
> >>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
> >>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> euros,
> >>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
> >>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing
> to
> >>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>
> >>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>
> >>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
> >>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game to
> >>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>
> >>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece
> of
> >>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
> say
> >>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on
> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal
> ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
> >>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Ty
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >>
> >> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> >> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >> If
> >> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >> immediately
> >> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
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> >> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
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> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
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> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:46:50 -0500
> >
> > These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
> >
> > 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> > 2. Extract the files.
> > 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may
> be
> > under program files-x86
> > 4. Also put the files in the
> /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
> > 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice
> > above
> > Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
> > appdata/roming/NVDA
> > 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may
> need to
> > show hidden files/folders.
> >
> >
> > H.R. Soltani
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> Traxler
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> > So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat
> the
> > list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell
>
> > nvda
> > that it's on the machine?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Howard
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
> >> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should
> be
> >> fine.
> >>
> >> H.R. Soltani
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> James
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> Hi Elf,
> >> You might want to see this page.
> >>
> >> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>
> >> Jim Homme,
> >> Usability Services,
> >> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> >> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>
> >> elf
> >> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >> for blind computer users and programmers
> >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer on
> >>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >>> present
> >>> your legal analysis.
> >>> Best,
> >>> Dennis
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>computer
> >>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
> >>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it
> is
> >>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>> controled by
> >>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>
> >>>>> this
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> >>>>> files
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>> programs
> >>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found
> a
> >>>>> choice
> >>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should
> be
> >>>>> some
> >>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>> donating
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>>> backup
> >>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>>> minutes
> >>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
> >>>>> screen
> >>>>> reader.
> >>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys
> to
> >>>>> get
> >>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>
> >>>>> But
> >>>>> open
> >>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
> If
> >>>>> each
> >>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> who
> >>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>
> >>>>> sold
> >>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be
> a
> >>>>> lot
> >>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> business
> >>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>>> money.
> >>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> >>>>>> things
> >>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
> use
> >>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
> its
> >>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
> >>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> euros,
> >>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
> >>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing
> to
> >>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application
> >>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>
> >>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>
> >>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
> >>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game to
> >>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>
> >>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece
> of
> >>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
> say
> >>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it
> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on
> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal
> ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
> >>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Ty
> >>>>>
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> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >>
> >> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> >> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >> If
> >> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >> immediately
> >> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> >> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> >> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> >> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries,
> or
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Howard Traxler" <htraxler2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:56:05 -0600
> >
> > Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me
> > anywhere.
> > I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near
> the
> > end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
> > correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
> > Howard
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
> >>
> >> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >> 2. Extract the files.
> >> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may
> be
> >> under program files-x86
> >> 4. Also put the files in the
> /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
> >> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice
> >> above
> >> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
> >> appdata/roming/NVDA
> >> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may
> need
> >> to
> >> show hidden files/folders.
> >>
> >>
> >> H.R. Soltani
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >> Traxler
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat
> the
> >> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I
> tell
> >> nvda
> >> that it's on the machine?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Howard
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no
> license
> >>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you
> should be
> >>> fine.
> >>>
> >>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> James
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>> Hi Elf,
> >>> You might want to see this page.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>>
> >>> Jim Homme,
> >>> Usability Services,
> >>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> >>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>>
> >>> elf
> >>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >>> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >>> for blind computer users and programmers
> >>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer
> >>>> on
> >>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >>>> present
> >>>> your legal analysis.
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Dennis
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>>computer
> >>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for
> the
> >>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that
> it is
> >>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>>> controled by
> >>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it...
> is
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> >>>>>> files
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>>> programs
> >>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I
> found a
> >>>>>> choice
> >>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed.
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should
> be
> >>>>>> some
> >>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>>> donating
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>>>> backup
> >>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>>>> minutes
> >>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open
> source
> >>>>>> screen
> >>>>>> reader.
> >>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or
> trys to
> >>>>>> get
> >>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this
> online.
> >>>>>> But
> >>>>>> open
> >>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and
> prosper!
> >>>>>> If
> >>>>>> each
> >>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new
> >>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since
> they
> >>>>>> sold
> >>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would
> be a
> >>>>>> lot
> >>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> >>>>>> business
> >>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>>>> money.
> >>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> >>>>>>> things
> >>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed
> to
> >>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to
> sell
> >>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about
> is
> >>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> >>>>>>> euros,
> >>>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what
> I
> >>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing
> to
> >>>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application
> >>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made
> an
> >>>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted
> by
> >>>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe
> that
> >>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only
> that
> >>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>
> >>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> >>>>>>>>>> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another
> piece of
> >>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> >>>>>>>>>>> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now
> lets
> >>>>>>>>>>> say
> >>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there
> and I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the
> subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give
> it to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed
> on a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the
> functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal
> ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available
> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them
> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> >>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >>> If
> >>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >>> immediately
> >>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> >>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> >>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> >>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries,
> or
> >>> affiliates.
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:02:30 -0500
> >
> > The link should be:
> > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >
> > The website I got it from is:
> > http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=3151&p=3
> >
> > H.R. Soltani
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> Traxler
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:56 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> > Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me
> > anywhere.
> > I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near
> the
> > end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
> > correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
> > Howard
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
> >>
> >> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >> 2. Extract the files.
> >> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may
> be
> >> under program files-x86
> >> 4. Also put the files in the
> /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
> >> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice
> >> above
> >> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
> >> appdata/roming/NVDA
> >> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may
> need
> >> to
> >> show hidden files/folders.
> >>
> >>
> >> H.R. Soltani
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >> Traxler
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat
> the
> >> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I
> tell
> >> nvda
> >> that it's on the machine?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Howard
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no
> license
> >>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you
> should be
> >>> fine.
> >>>
> >>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> James
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>> Hi Elf,
> >>> You might want to see this page.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>>
> >>> Jim Homme,
> >>> Usability Services,
> >>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> >>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>>
> >>> elf
> >>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >>> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >>> for blind computer users and programmers
> >>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer
> >>>> on
> >>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >>>> present
> >>>> your legal analysis.
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Dennis
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>>computer
> >>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for
> the
> >>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that
> it is
> >>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>>> controled by
> >>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it...
> is
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
> >>>>>> files
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>>> programs
> >>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I
> found a
> >>>>>> choice
> >>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed.
> >>>>>> I
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should
> be
> >>>>>> some
> >>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>>> donating
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
> and
> >>>>>> backup
> >>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>>>> minutes
> >>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> boxes
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open
> source
> >>>>>> screen
> >>>>>> reader.
> >>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or
> trys to
> >>>>>> get
> >>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this
> online.
> >>>>>> But
> >>>>>> open
> >>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> costs
> >>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and
> prosper!
> >>>>>> If
> >>>>>> each
> >>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new
> >>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since
> they
> >>>>>> sold
> >>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would
> be a
> >>>>>> lot
> >>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> >>>>>> business
> >>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
> >>>>>> money.
> >>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> right
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> pathetic.
> >>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> >>>>>>> things
> >>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed
> to
> >>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to
> sell
> >>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about
> is
> >>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> >>>>>>> euros,
> >>>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what
> I
> >>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
> >>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing
> to
> >>>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application
> >>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made
> an
> >>>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted
> by
> >>>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe
> that
> >>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
> >>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only
> that
> >>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>
> >>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> because,
> >>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be
> un
> >>>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> >>>>>>>>>> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another
> piece of
> >>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
> you
> >>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> >>>>>>>>>>> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
> Now
> >>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now
> lets
> >>>>>>>>>>> say
> >>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
> own
> >>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
> was
> >>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> together
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there
> and I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the
> subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give
> it to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed
> on a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the
> functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal
> ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available
> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them
> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> >>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >>> If
> >>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >>> immediately
> >>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
> not
> >>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> author's
> >>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> >>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries,
> or
> >>> affiliates.
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Howard Traxler" <htraxler2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:40:32 -0600
> >
> > the line breaks after the n in eloquen
> > then there are two spaces, a period, another space, then 20nvda.exe
> >
> > it looks like this:
> > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen
> > . 20nvda.exe
> >
> > I'll try the other address in your e-mail.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:02 PM
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> The link should be:
> >> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>
> >> The website I got it from is:
> >> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=3151&p=3
> >>
> >> H.R. Soltani
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >> Traxler
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:56 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me
> >> anywhere.
> >> I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near
> the
> >> end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
> >> correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
> >> Howard
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
> >>>
> >>> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>> 2. Extract the files.
> >>> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it
> may be
> >>> under program files-x86
> >>> 4. Also put the files in the
> /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
> >>> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer
> choice
> >>> above
> >>> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file
> under
> >>> appdata/roming/NVDA
> >>> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may
> need
> >>> to
> >>> show hidden files/folders.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >>> Traxler
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look
> aat
> >>> the
> >>> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I
> tell
> >>> nvda
> >>> that it's on the machine?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> Howard
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no
> license
> >>>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >>>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you
> should
> >>>> be
> >>>> fine.
> >>>>
> >>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> >>>> James
> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Elf,
> >>>> You might want to see this page.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim Homme,
> >>>> Usability Services,
> >>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >>>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> >>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>>>
> >>>> elf
> >>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >>>> for blind computer users and programmers
> >>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >>>>> present
> >>>>> your legal analysis.
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>> Dennis
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new
> >>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>>>computer
> >>>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for
> the
> >>>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that
> it
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>>>> controled by
> >>>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it...
> is
> >>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy
> the
> >>>>>>> files
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>>>> programs
> >>>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I
> found a
> >>>>>>> choice
> >>>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should
> be
> >>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>>>> donating
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen
> reader
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> backup
> >>>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>>>>> minutes
> >>>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> >>>>>>> boxes
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open
> source
> >>>>>>> screen
> >>>>>>> reader.
> >>>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or
> trys
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> get
> >>>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this
> online.
> >>>>>>> But
> >>>>>>> open
> >>>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> >>>>>>> costs
> >>>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and
> prosper!
> >>>>>>> If
> >>>>>>> each
> >>>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> >>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>> new
> >>>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since
> they
> >>>>>>> sold
> >>>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would
> be a
> >>>>>>> lot
> >>>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> >>>>>>> business
> >>>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots
> of
> >>>>>>> money.
> >>>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> >>>>>>> right
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> >>>>>>> pathetic.
> >>>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> >>>>>>>> things
> >>>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed
> to
> >>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to
> sell
> >>>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about
> is
> >>>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> >>>>>>>> euros,
> >>>>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what
> I
> >>>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version
> of
> >>>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing
> to
> >>>>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application
> >>>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made
> an
> >>>>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted
> by
> >>>>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before
> contacting
> >>>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> >>>>>>>>>>> because,
> >>>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to
> be un
> >>>>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> >>>>>>>>>>> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> >>>>>>>>>>> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another
> piece
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not
> give
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say
> football.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now
> lets
> >>>>>>>>>>>> say
> >>>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in
> our
> >>>>>>>>>>>> own
> >>>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the
> code
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> together
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there
> and I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the
> subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give
> it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true.
> That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed
> on a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the
> functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that
> illegal ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available
> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them
> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> >>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >>>> If
> >>>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >>>> immediately
> >>>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you
> must
> >>>> not
> >>>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> >>>> author's
> >>>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do
> not
> >>>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries,
> or
> >>>> affiliates.
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:44:05 -0500
> >
> > Feel free to email me at: Soltani@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Must be the list.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> Traxler
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:41 PM
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> > the line breaks after the n in eloquen
> > then there are two spaces, a period, another space, then 20nvda.exe
> >
> > it looks like this:
> > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen
> > . 20nvda.exe
> >
> > I'll try the other address in your e-mail.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:02 PM
> > Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> >
> >
> >> The link should be:
> >> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>
> >> The website I got it from is:
> >> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=3151&p=3
> >>
> >> H.R. Soltani
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >> Traxler
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:56 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me
> >> anywhere.
> >> I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near
> the
> >> end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
> >> correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
> >> Howard
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
> >>>
> >>> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>> 2. Extract the files.
> >>> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it
> may be
> >>> under program files-x86
> >>> 4. Also put the files in the
> /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
> >>> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer
> choice
> >>> above
> >>> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file
> under
> >>> appdata/roming/NVDA
> >>> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may
> need
> >>> to
> >>> show hidden files/folders.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >>> Traxler
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look
> aat
> >>> the
> >>> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I
> tell
> >>> nvda
> >>> that it's on the machine?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> Howard
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no
> license
> >>>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >>>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you
> should
> >>>> be
> >>>> fine.
> >>>>
> >>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> >>>> James
> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Elf,
> >>>> You might want to see this page.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim Homme,
> >>>> Usability Services,
> >>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >>>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility
> >>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The Elf
> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>>>
> >>>> elf
> >>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >>>> for blind computer users and programmers
> >>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
> >>>>> present
> >>>>> your legal analysis.
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>> Dennis
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> code.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new
> >>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>>>computer
> >>>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for
> the
> >>>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> software
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that
> it
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>>>> controled by
> >>>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it...
> is
> >>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy
> the
> >>>>>>> files
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>>>> programs
> >>>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I
> found a
> >>>>>>> choice
> >>>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> removed.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should
> be
> >>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>>>> donating
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen
> reader
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> backup
> >>>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a
> few
> >>>>>>> minutes
> >>>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> >>>>>>> boxes
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open
> source
> >>>>>>> screen
> >>>>>>> reader.
> >>>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or
> trys
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> get
> >>>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this
> online.
> >>>>>>> But
> >>>>>>> open
> >>>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> >>>>>>> costs
> >>>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and
> prosper!
> >>>>>>> If
> >>>>>>> each
> >>>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
> >>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>> new
> >>>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since
> they
> >>>>>>> sold
> >>>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would
> be a
> >>>>>>> lot
> >>>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> >>>>>>> business
> >>>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots
> of
> >>>>>>> money.
> >>>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> >>>>>>> right
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> >>>>>>> pathetic.
> >>>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with
> the
> >>>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
> >>>>>>>> things
> >>>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed
> to
> >>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to
> sell
> >>>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about
> is
> >>>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> >>>>>>>> euros,
> >>>>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what
> I
> >>>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version
> of
> >>>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing
> to
> >>>>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> application
> >>>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made
> an
> >>>>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted
> by
> >>>>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it.
> IBM
> >>>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before
> contacting
> >>>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
> >>>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only
> that
> >>>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> software
> >>>>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> >>>>>>>>>>> because,
> >>>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
> >>>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to
> be un
> >>>>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> >>>>>>>>>>> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> >>>>>>>>>>> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another
> piece
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not
> give
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
> what
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say
> football.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now
> lets
> >>>>>>>>>>>> say
> >>>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in
> our
> >>>>>>>>>>>> own
> >>>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the
> code
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> together
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in
> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there
> and I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the
> subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it
> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give
> it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true.
> That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed
> on a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the
> functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that
> illegal ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available
> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them
> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended
> >>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >>>> If
> >>>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >>>> immediately
> >>>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you
> must
> >>>> not
> >>>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> >>>> author's
> >>>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do
> not
> >>>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries,
> or
> >>>> affiliates.
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:50:48 -0500
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> > voice?
> > From: Alex Hall <mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > So... I am still a bit confused. I am not passing judgement on anyone,
> > just curious: is the exe linked to in a previous post legal (assuming
> > you own a program with a licensed copy of Eloquence) or illegal?
> >
> > On 11/22/10, Client Services <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> Feel free to email me at: Soltani@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Must be the list.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >> Traxler
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:41 PM
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> the line breaks after the n in eloquen
> >> then there are two spaces, a period, another space, then 20nvda.exe
> >>
> >> it looks like this:
> >> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen
> >> . 20nvda.exe
> >>
> >> I'll try the other address in your e-mail.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:02 PM
> >> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >> voice?
> >>
> >>
> >>> The link should be:
> >>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>
> >>> The website I got it from is:
> >>> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=3151&p=3
> >>>
> >>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >>> Traxler
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:56 PM
> >>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me
> >>> anywhere.
> >>> I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces
> near
> >>> the
> >>> end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
> >>> correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
> >>> Howard
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>> voice?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>> 2. Extract the files.
> >>>> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it
> may
> >>>> be
> >>>> under program files-x86
> >>>> 4. Also put the files in the
> >>>> /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
> >>>> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer
> choice
> >>>> above
> >>>> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file
> under
> >>>> appdata/roming/NVDA
> >>>> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may
> need
> >>>> to
> >>>> show hidden files/folders.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Howard
> >>>> Traxler
> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
> >>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look
> aat
> >>>> the
> >>>> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I
> tell
> >>>> nvda
> >>>> that it's on the machine?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks.
> >>>>
> >>>> Howard
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> new
> >>>> voice?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no
> license
> >>>>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> >>>>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you
> should
> >>>>> be
> >>>>> fine.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Homme,
> >>>>> James
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Elf,
> >>>>> You might want to see this page.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jim Homme,
> >>>>> Usability Services,
> >>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> >>>>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> >>>>> accessibility
> >>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> <programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of The
> Elf
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> that's what I thought, thank you
> >>>>>
> >>>>> elf
> >>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> >>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> >>>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> >>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> >>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> >>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
> >>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>> new
> >>>>> voice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a
> lawyer
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal,
> please
> >>>>>> present
> >>>>>> your legal analysis.
> >>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>> Dennis
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>> new
> >>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
> >>>>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
> >>>>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
> >>>>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of
> >>>>>>> code.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>> new
> >>>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
> >>>>>>>>computer
> >>>>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for
> the
> >>>>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text
> for
> >>>>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence
> >>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that
> it
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
> >>>>>>>> controled by
> >>>>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it...
> is
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
> >>>>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
> >>>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> >>>>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy
> the
> >>>>>>>> files
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
> >>>>>>>> programs
> >>>>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
> >>>>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I
> found
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> choice
> >>>>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
> >>>>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been
> >>>>>>>> removed.
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
> >>>>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there
> should be
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
> >>>>>>>> donating
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen
> reader
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> backup
> >>>>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just
> a
> >>>>>>>> few
> >>>>>>>> minutes
> >>>>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
> >>>>>>>> boxes
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
> >>>>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open
> source
> >>>>>>>> screen
> >>>>>>>> reader.
> >>>>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or
> trys
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> get
> >>>>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
> >>>>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this
> online.
> >>>>>>>> But
> >>>>>>>> open
> >>>>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
> >>>>>>>> costs
> >>>>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and
> prosper!
> >>>>>>>> If
> >>>>>>>> each
> >>>>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really
> help
> >>>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
> >>>>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
> >>>>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
> >>>>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
> NVDA
> >>>>>>>> new
> >>>>>>>> voice?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since
> they
> >>>>>>>> sold
> >>>>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would
> be
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> lot
> >>>>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
> >>>>>>>> business
> >>>>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots
> of
> >>>>>>>> money.
> >>>>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
> >>>>>>>> right
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
> >>>>>>>> pathetic.
> >>>>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold
> with
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with.
> He
> >>>>>>>>> things
> >>>>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed
> to
> >>>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>>> eloquence as well.
> >>>>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to
> sell
> >>>>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>>>> software with any license they want.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about
> is
> >>>>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
> >>>>>>>>> euros,
> >>>>>>>>> way above $100.
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
> >>>>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>
> >>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From
> what I
> >>>>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version
> of
> >>>>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be
> willing to
> >>>>>>>>>> pay
> >>>>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the
> >>>>>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
> >>>>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made
> an
> >>>>>>>>>>> nvda
> >>>>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted
> by
> >>>>>>>>>>> IBM,
> >>>>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in
> it.
> >>>>>>>>>>> IBM
> >>>>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before
> contacting
> >>>>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
> >>>>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks
> trough
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> interface.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>>>>> speaks.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
> >>>>>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> because,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or
> buy
> >>>>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that
> game
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to
> be
> >>>>>>>>>>>> un
> >>>>>>>>>>>> happy.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
> >>>>>>>>>>>> elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Elocuence
> >>>>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the
> code
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
> >>>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> software.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another
> piece
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not
> give
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To
> keep
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to
> be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> paid.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not
> free.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say
> football.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and
> you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now
> lets
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in
> our
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> own
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you
> get
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the
> code
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> together
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth
> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> was:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the
> subject:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but
> it is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing
> floating
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give
> it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws
> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true.
> That
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed
> on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the
> functions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that
> illegal ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available
> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> trouble
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them
> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> substance."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> Ty
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________
> >>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> __________
> >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> >>>>> intended
> >>>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> >>>>> If
> >>>>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> >>>>> immediately
> >>>>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you
> must
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
> >>>>> author's
> >>>>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do
> not
> >>>>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its
> subsidiaries, or
> >>>>> affiliates.
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________
> >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>> __________
> >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>> __________
> >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Have a great day,
> > Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
> > mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> > Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:33:31 +0200
> >
> > yep.
> > Devexpress offer their components with source, but they are expensive.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Storm Dragon
> > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> n
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I think open source is the best, in deed the only way to go. Just
> > because
> > it's open source doesn't mean it has to be free as in "free beer".
> > I wonder if anyone has tried making a program that is open source
> and
> > charging like $10 or so for it? If the price isn't stupid I am sure
> > people,
> > most people, would pay for it. You'd always have people distributing
> free
> > copies, but that happens with nonfree software anyway. Lol I may try
> it
> > myself one day. Does anyone know if there is a license that permits
> > distributing modifications of the software only to people who have
> > purchased
> > the software? I don't think I would use such a thing myself, because I
>
> > would
> > want anyone, no matter how poor they may be, to be able to use my
> software
> > if they want. Just curious if it exists.
> > Storm
> > --
> > Registered Linux user number 508465:
> > http://counter.li.org/
> > My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
> > http://www.stormdragon.us/
> > Get yourself a Frostbox:
> > http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 11:31 -0800, The Elf wrote:
> > loud applause, and I agree
> >
> > elf
> > Moderator, Blind Access Help
> > Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> > Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> > - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> > www.alacorncomputer.com
> > proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> > for blind computer users and programmers
> > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:57 AM
> > Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> >
> >
> >> This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
> >> what is driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
> >> Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same
> product
> >> is just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
> >> commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
> >>
> >> You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
> >> toast in it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker
> >> company calls you up to yell at you saying that you only had the
> right
> >> to make toast with their product and you must cease and desist your
> >> making of ego waffles with their toaster immediatly because you
> didn't
> >> buy the toaster, you bought the right to use the toaster for making
> >> toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast it'd make that company's head
> >> spin. You try that with any other product and you'd get the same
> >> result from consumers. It simply boggles me that software can be
> >> restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze so much
> >> juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user
> in
> >> such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff you
> >> licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind
> >> that there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I
> was
> >> IBM I'd be looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for
> >> all uses and cash in instead of deciding that it can only be used for
> >> one thing and leave it at the discretion of resellers like Freedom
> >> Scientific and their sort. I'd market it as: "Our synthesizer is so
> >> powerful it can be used for the following things: " (Long,
> exhaustive
> >> list follows ...)
> >>
> >> I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to
> which
> >> he carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a
> penny
> >> to the writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software
> >> is far too restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The
> >> software was paid for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally
> >> obtained. For another program to use that software just keeps it in
> >> the market as a viable product. Keeping other programs from using it
> >> ultimately results in loss of viability. What is so hard to
> >> understand about this?
> >>
> >> Alex M
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
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> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of programmingblind Digest V4 #339
> > **************************************
> >
> >
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings
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>
--
Kerneels Roos
Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
Skype: cornelis.roos
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!
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