Re: Paying for Open source was Eloquence with NVDA
- From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:13:08 -0600
Hi,
You can't make a living like that. Why would any sane person pay for
what they could get for free? Let me ask you, if you had a choice
between going to a free luncheon and going out and paying for exactly
the same food being served at your luncheon, would you do it? I
wouldn't. The way to make a living in Open Source is customization.
You get hired to customize the software they downloaded for free to
their specifications. This is seriously risky stuff. They have to 1,
like your software and 2, pick you to do the scustomizing instead of
some other coder who can read your source code and do it for you. I
would write open source software if it was something I wanted to make
available to the community at large. I would do it because I wanted
to do it as an act of good will to others. I would not do it to make
a living. I'm seriously convinced that I would starve. I might be
missing something but I just have no idea how one can make a decent
living at such unless I make a deal with some ad company and insert
spyware into my code that snoops on my users. That is something I am
virulently opposed to. I think it's wrong. Either you make something
for free or you don't. And you don't sneak onto people's machines and
spy on what they do with them. That is their business and should be
private. Now, I might pay for added features. If I find an open
source software out there and someone wrote a feature pack for it to
supe it up, I'd buy that. Perhaps that is a way to make a living on
it though I think gpl keeps you from writing proprietary code based on
open source code. I don't know for sure.
Now, I could make a serious killing on Open Source by pre-installing
a bunch of it on a computer I was selling. Elf, do you/would you do
this? It would be a good way to include some nice features onto a
machine. Pre-install something like Ubuntu with accessibility like
what Vinux does and then put a bunch of useful stuff on there. Or,
with Windows, put a bunch of useful open source apps on there. You
could slash the price of the Linux machine by about a hundred bucks or
so and still make a nice profit because you wouldn't be pre-purchasing
all the stuff that you had to install on the machine. This model
still doesn't let me as a programmer make money on the open source
stuff that was pre-installed, however.
Alex M
stormdragon2976@xxxxxxxxx> Wrote:
Hi,
I think open source is the best, in deed the only way to go. Just
because it's open source doesn't mean it has to be free as in "free
beer".
I wonder if anyone has tried making a program that is open source and
charging like $10 or so for it? If the price isn't stupid I am sure
people, most people, would pay for it. You'd always have people
distributing free copies, but that happens with nonfree software anyway.
Lol I may try it myself one day. Does anyone know if there is a license
that permits distributing modifications of the software only to people
who have purchased the software? I don't think I would use such a thing
myself, because I would want anyone, no matter how poor they may be, to
be able to use my software if they want. Just curious if it exists.
Storm
--
Registered Linux user number 508465:
http://counter.li.org/
My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
http://www.stormdragon.us/
Get yourself a Frostbox:
http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
On 11/23/10, FreeLists Mailing List Manager <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> programmingblind Digest Mon, 22 Nov 2010 Volume: 04 Issue: 339
>
> In This Issue:
> asp.net help required
> Re: A delicate issue with the windows command prompt
> Re: asp.net help required
> Re: asp.net help required
> Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
> Excel Question: Looking At OLE Objects
> RE: NVDA new voice?
> Excel And JAWS Question
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: Excel And JAWS Question
> RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Excel Events
> Re: Excel Events
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 13:04:08 +0530
> Subject: asp.net help required
> From: ishaq muhammad <sendmailtoishaq@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> Hello all,
> I am a new member of this list.
> I am 100 percent blind.
>
> i was successfully doing some basic application with c# and now I am
> required to develop a website in asp.net.
> it’s the first project that i have started developing and I am getting
> problem.
> Can someone please tell me how to work with designer window in asp.net?
> For example, I want to make a simple page with few textboxes and a button.
> I am able to invoke toolbox by alt+ctrl+x that I was doing in c#
> windows application as well, but when adding several controls, I am
> not able to open their code behind windows.
> In c# windows application, I used to press tab, and jaws used to
> announce the name of the control, pressing enter on which used to take
> me in the code window of that control.
> It’s not happening here.
> It says nothing when I press tab, shift+tab, enter or any other key in
> designer window.
> Even if I press f7 to go in the code window, only the code for
> page_load is written.
> I am sure that the controls have been successfully added on the page,
> because they are visible if I compile and run it on browser.
>
> I wonder, where has the code for textboxes, buttons and other control gone?
>
> i am so worried, is it not possible for me to work with asp.net?
> I heard that its doable, how do you do it?
>
> I have jaws version 10 with scripts for vs.net, and vs.net 2008.
>
>
> Ishaq.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Hamid Hamraz" <hhamraz@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: A delicate issue with the windows command prompt
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:18:52 +0330
>
> mine is 32 bit.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Perry
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:21 AM
> Subject: RE: A delicate issue with the windows command prompt
>
>
>
>
>
> Are you using 32 bit or 64 bit windows. Jaws 11 and 12 works fine with
> the cmd in 64 bit if you don't mind it repeating the whole line every time
> you delete a character. I have told FS of this and while they fixed part of
> the problem I told them about the repeat is still a problem when deleting.
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hamid Hamraz
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:25 PM
> To: jfw list; B-programming
> Subject: A delicate issue with the windows command prompt
>
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
>
>
> I have run into an issue in command prompt which bothers me while using
> the tools that are accessible via the windows command line, such as the CMD
> itself, python interactive interpreter and so on. when the command box fills
> up with the stuff and it starts scrolling down for the new lines to be
> appeared, I noticed that the backspace, when pressed, Jaws reads the
> character to the left of the cursor's above line (instead of the cursor's
> current line), though the backspace is doing what is expected to do. For the
> command line, the CLS command clears the screen and it is a decent quick
> fix. However for python and also the other tools I am not so sure of such a
> command/fix. Now I want to find out if this issue is present in any other
> variants of this combination: XP SP3 and Jaws 10. Besides, I appreciate any
> suggestions or comments on how to resolve this issue.
>
>
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Hamid
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacobk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: asp.net help required
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:54:26 +0200
>
> I would generally work in the page markup, since the intellisense will
> prompt you with html elements, and markup attributes, etc. and you can
> mostly also add event attributes like this and then right click there and
> tell it to go to/generate the code behind etc. - but don't work in this too
> often, so you might still need to play around with it a bit.
>
> Stay well
>
> Jacob Kruger
> Blind Biker
> Skype: BlindZA
> '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ishaq muhammad" <sendmailtoishaq@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:34 AM
> Subject: asp.net help required
>
>
> Hello all,
> I am a new member of this list.
> I am 100 percent blind.
>
> i was successfully doing some basic application with c# and now I am
> required to develop a website in asp.net.
> it’s the first project that i have started developing and I am getting
> problem.
> Can someone please tell me how to work with designer window in asp.net?
> For example, I want to make a simple page with few textboxes and a button.
> I am able to invoke toolbox by alt+ctrl+x that I was doing in c#
> windows application as well, but when adding several controls, I am
> not able to open their code behind windows.
> In c# windows application, I used to press tab, and jaws used to
> announce the name of the control, pressing enter on which used to take
> me in the code window of that control.
> It’s not happening here.
> It says nothing when I press tab, shift+tab, enter or any other key in
> designer window.
> Even if I press f7 to go in the code window, only the code for
> page_load is written.
> I am sure that the controls have been successfully added on the page,
> because they are visible if I compile and run it on browser.
>
> I wonder, where has the code for textboxes, buttons and other control gone?
>
> i am so worried, is it not possible for me to work with asp.net?
> I heard that its doable, how do you do it?
>
> I have jaws version 10 with scripts for vs.net, and vs.net 2008.
>
>
> Ishaq.
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5637 (20101121) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
> database 5637 (20101121) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "RicksPlace" <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: asp.net help required
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:10:04 -0500
>
> Hi: The designer in the VS, or VWD, IDE is diferent from the one you use
> when working in CSharp or VB,.net or other file types like xml or sql or
> even txt. It is not very accessible. For that reason most folks do work
> with their html and native Form Elements like ListBoxes or TextBoxes etc...
> in the html Editor. In there you can bring up the ToolBox as you mentioned
> and drop ASP.net controls or html directly into the Code Editor. You can use
> Intellisense and you can highlight the first few characters on a llline then
> bring up the Designer and then the properties window or any combinition of
> that to get to the Events for that particular control. There are other ways
> of working on controls you drop into the Code for the page but they are all
> explained and demonstrated in some tutorials already out there for VWD 2008
> and 2005.
> The process is to add a Webpage to your project, then open the html editor
> for the page, drop some controls on the page and set their properties in the
> properties window. Then Use any technique to access the events you want to
> add to any of those controls and then code the csharp to implement the
> functionallity you desire. As I mentioned you can be in the either the html
> editor or the code editor, hit a hot key combinition, I forget it off the
> top of my head, and have a list of the controls on the page come up in a
> ListBox. You highlight the control you want to work with, tab to another
> ListBox and in that one you have a list of all the possible events for the
> selected control. Hit enter and that event is added to the Code Behind
> Subroutuine for that event. That is only one way to do it. You can get nto
> the properties window from the designer and then you can tab to a list of
> events for a selected control and hit enter to do the same. There is another
> method but I forget it. Anyway, read through the StarTrek Tutorials if you
> can find them just to get an idea of some of the hot keys and methods that
> worked for me while building a couple of Websites. I did them in ASP.net,
> VWD, and Sql Server Express using VB.net as the language.
> Rick USA
> ASP.net IDE Generator and Editor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacobk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 AM
> Subject: Re: asp.net help required
>
>
>>I would generally work in the page markup, since the intellisense will
>>prompt you with html elements, and markup attributes, etc. and you can
>>mostly also add event attributes like this and then right click there and
>>tell it to go to/generate the code behind etc. - but don't work in this too
>>
>>often, so you might still need to play around with it a bit.
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ishaq muhammad" <sendmailtoishaq@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:34 AM
>> Subject: asp.net help required
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>> I am a new member of this list.
>> I am 100 percent blind.
>>
>> i was successfully doing some basic application with c# and now I am
>> required to develop a website in asp.net.
>> it’s the first project that i have started developing and I am getting
>> problem.
>> Can someone please tell me how to work with designer window in asp.net?
>> For example, I want to make a simple page with few textboxes and a button.
>> I am able to invoke toolbox by alt+ctrl+x that I was doing in c#
>> windows application as well, but when adding several controls, I am
>> not able to open their code behind windows.
>> In c# windows application, I used to press tab, and jaws used to
>> announce the name of the control, pressing enter on which used to take
>> me in the code window of that control.
>> It’s not happening here.
>> It says nothing when I press tab, shift+tab, enter or any other key in
>> designer window.
>> Even if I press f7 to go in the code window, only the code for
>> page_load is written.
>> I am sure that the controls have been successfully added on the page,
>> because they are visible if I compile and run it on browser.
>>
>> I wonder, where has the code for textboxes, buttons and other control
>> gone?
>>
>> i am so worried, is it not possible for me to work with asp.net?
>> I heard that its doable, how do you do it?
>>
>> I have jaws version 10 with scripts for vs.net, and vs.net 2008.
>>
>>
>> Ishaq.
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 5637 (20101121) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 5637 (20101121) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:57:19 -0600
> Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> From: Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
> what is driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
> Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same product
> is just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
> commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
>
> You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
> toast in it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker
> company calls you up to yell at you saying that you only had the right
> to make toast with their product and you must cease and desist your
> making of ego waffles with their toaster immediatly because you didn't
> buy the toaster, you bought the right to use the toaster for making
> toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast it'd make that company's head
> spin. You try that with any other product and you'd get the same
> result from consumers. It simply boggles me that software can be
> restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze so much
> juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user in
> such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff you
> licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind
> that there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I was
> IBM I'd be looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for
> all uses and cash in instead of deciding that it can only be used for
> one thing and leave it at the discretion of resellers like Freedom
> Scientific and their sort. I'd market it as: "Our synthesizer is so
> powerful it can be used for the following things: " (Long, exhaustive
> list follows ...)
>
> I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to which
> he carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a penny
> to the writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software
> is far too restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The
> software was paid for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally
> obtained. For another program to use that software just keeps it in
> the market as a viable product. Keeping other programs from using it
> ultimately results in loss of viability. What is so hard to
> understand about this?
>
> Alex M
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:27:02 -0500
> Subject: Excel Question: Looking At OLE Objects
>
> Hi,
> I have an Excel spreadsheet that has two OLE objects. How do I examine them?
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility
> blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> Discuss accessibility
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default.aspx>.
> Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
>
>
> ________________________________
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately
> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> affiliates.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Aubertin, Gerry" <gaubertin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:43:37 -0800
> Subject: RE: NVDA new voice?
>
> Eileen:
> I only caught up with my programming blind stuff this morning, so I
> didn't have a chance to respond to your message earlier. Here is what I
> think you want.
>
> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>
> The Svox Pico voice is perhaps what you want. I have it and I like it.
> Just make sure you read the installation instructions carefully as they are
> a bit brief. Let me know if you have any problems.
>
>
> Gerry Aubertin
> Programmer/Analyst
> Phone: (519) 271-4840 Ext. 8807
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE - The contents of this message and the attachments
> are confidential and are for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s).
> If you are not an intended recipient, please immediately delete it without
> reading it and without further distribution or disclosure. Any further
> distribution of this message to others is subject to this Confidentiality
> Notice and/or any confidentiality agreement or non-disclosure agreement in
> effect that covers the information contained in the message and any
> attachments.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lafond, Eileen
> [Eileen.Lafond@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 4:33 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: NVDA new voice?
>
> Hi,
> There was a thread on this list a few months ago about NVDA. I thought that
> I had read that there is a way to change the voice? I am checking the
> usability of NVDA out now on a computer at work and would like to have a
> voice that is a little more understandable.
>
> Can anyone help?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eileen La fond
> Work phone: (206) 386-0011
> email: eileen.lafond@xxxxxxxxxxx
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:33:57 -0500
> Subject: Excel And JAWS Question
>
> Hi,
> With JAWS 11 I have an Excel spreadsheet. The sheet is a 2003 workbook. I'm
> viewing it in Excel 2007. JAWS tells me that it sees three embedded objects.
> I know that at least one of them is a drop down box. I want to see the
> properties of the one that's a dropdown box. How do I do that? When I get
> JAWS to land on it, it seems to say that it is blank. Perhaps the first
> entry is blank.
> I can't share the sheet. It's proprietary.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility
> blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> Discuss accessibility
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default.aspx>.
> Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
>
>
> ________________________________
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately
> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> affiliates.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:51:32 -0800
>
> that's what I thought, thank you
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> Hello,
>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please present
>>
>> your legal analysis.
>> Best,
>> Dennis
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my computer
>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software on
>>>> a
>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>> controled by
>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is this
>>>> not
>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the files
>>>> in
>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my programs
>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>> choice
>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed. I
>>>> have
>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be some
>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly donating
>>>> to
>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>> backup
>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>> minutes
>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>> for
>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>> screen
>>>> reader.
>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>> get
>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online. But
>>>> open
>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>> each
>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help people
>>>> who
>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they sold
>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a lot
>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of money.
>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right to
>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He things
>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>
>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to pay
>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application it
>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an nvda
>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by IBM,
>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that they
>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my software
>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence I
>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the software.
>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute a
>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating around
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That point
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say... terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info: //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ty
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:06:44 -0500
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>
> Hi Elf,
> You might want to see this page.
>
> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
> that's what I thought, thank you
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> Hello,
>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please present
>> your legal analysis.
>> Best,
>> Dennis
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my computer
>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software on
>>>> a
>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>> controled by
>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is this
>>>> not
>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the files
>>>> in
>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my programs
>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>> choice
>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed. I
>>>> have
>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be some
>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly donating
>>>> to
>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>> backup
>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>> minutes
>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>> for
>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>> screen
>>>> reader.
>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>> get
>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online. But
>>>> open
>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>> each
>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help people
>>>> who
>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they sold
>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a lot
>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of money.
>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right to
>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He things
>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>
>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to pay
>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application it
>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an nvda
>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by IBM,
>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that they
>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my software
>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence I
>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the software.
>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute a
>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating around
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That point
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say... terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info: //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ty
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately
> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
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> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> affiliates.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Don Marang" <donald.marang@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Excel And JAWS Question
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:15:41 -0500
>
> of objects on the sheet. I think pressing Enter on the entry in the list
> takes you to the cell where it is embedded and opens it.
> Anyone know how to delete these objects? I accedently copied more than just
> text from a website and ended up with several objects on the page.
>
> Don Marang
>
> There is just so much stuff in the world that, to me, is devoid of any real
> substance, value, and content that I just try to make sure that I am working
> on things that matter.
> Dean Kamen
>
>
>
> From: Homme, James
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:33 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Excel And JAWS Question
>
>
> Hi,
>
> With JAWS 11 I have an Excel spreadsheet. The sheet is a 2003 workbook. I'm
> viewing it in Excel 2007. JAWS tells me that it sees three embedded objects.
> I know that at least one of them is a drop down box. I want to see the
> properties of the one that's a dropdown box. How do I do that? When I get
> JAWS to land on it, it seems to say that it is blank. Perhaps the first
> entry is blank.
>
>
>
> I can't share the sheet. It's proprietary.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Jim Homme,
>
> Usability Services,
>
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately
> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> affiliates.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:18:01 -0500
>
> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
> fine.
>
> H.R. Soltani
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
> Hi Elf,
> You might want to see this page.
>
> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
> that's what I thought, thank you
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> Hello,
>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please present
>> your legal analysis.
>> Best,
>> Dennis
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my computer
>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software on
>>>> a
>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>> controled by
>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is this
>>>> not
>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the files
>>>> in
>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my programs
>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>> choice
>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed. I
>>>> have
>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be some
>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly donating
>>>> to
>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>> backup
>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>> minutes
>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>> for
>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>> screen
>>>> reader.
>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>> get
>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online. But
>>>> open
>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>> each
>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help people
>>>> who
>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they sold
>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a lot
>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of money.
>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right to
>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He things
>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>
>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to pay
>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application it
>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an nvda
>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by IBM,
>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that they
>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my software
>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence I
>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the software.
>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute a
>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating around
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That point
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say... terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info: //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Ty
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately
> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> affiliates.
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:31:13 -0800
>
> loud applause, and I agree
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:57 AM
> Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
>
>
>> This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
>> what is driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
>> Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same product
>> is just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
>> commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
>>
>> You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
>> toast in it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker
>> company calls you up to yell at you saying that you only had the right
>> to make toast with their product and you must cease and desist your
>> making of ego waffles with their toaster immediatly because you didn't
>> buy the toaster, you bought the right to use the toaster for making
>> toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast it'd make that company's head
>> spin. You try that with any other product and you'd get the same
>> result from consumers. It simply boggles me that software can be
>> restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze so much
>> juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user in
>> such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff you
>> licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind
>> that there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I was
>> IBM I'd be looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for
>> all uses and cash in instead of deciding that it can only be used for
>> one thing and leave it at the discretion of resellers like Freedom
>> Scientific and their sort. I'd market it as: "Our synthesizer is so
>> powerful it can be used for the following things: " (Long, exhaustive
>> list follows ...)
>>
>> I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to which
>> he carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a penny
>> to the writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software
>> is far too restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The
>> software was paid for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally
>> obtained. For another program to use that software just keeps it in
>> the market as a viable product. Keeping other programs from using it
>> ultimately results in loss of viability. What is so hard to
>> understand about this?
>>
>> Alex M
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:58:38 -0500
> Subject: Excel Events
>
> Hi,
> Does anyone know if an Excel event fires when you hit Alt + Down Arrow in a
> cell?
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility
> blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> Discuss accessibility
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default.aspx>.
> Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
>
>
> ________________________________
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately
> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> affiliates.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Martin Slack" <m.g.slack@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Excel Events
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:46:48 -0000
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> This list:
>
> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/excel-shortcut-and-function-keys-HP010073848.aspx
>
> includes alt + down arrow, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the result is
> context dependent.
>
> hth
>
> Martin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:58 PM
> Subject: Excel Events
>
>
> Hi,
> Does anyone know if an Excel event fires when you hit Alt + Down Arrow in a
> cell?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility
> blog<http://mysites.highmark.com/personal/lidikki/Blog/default.aspx>.
> Discuss accessibility
> here<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/default.aspx>.
> Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice<http://collaborate.highmark.com/COP/technical/accessibility/Accessibility%20Wiki/Forms/AllPages.aspx>
>
>
> ________________________________
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately
> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
> affiliates.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> From: Storm Dragon <stormdragon2976@xxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:38:23 -0500
>
> Hi,
> I think open source is the best, in deed the only way to go. Just
> because it's open source doesn't mean it has to be free as in "free
> beer".
> I wonder if anyone has tried making a program that is open source and
> charging like $10 or so for it? If the price isn't stupid I am sure
> people, most people, would pay for it. You'd always have people
> distributing free copies, but that happens with nonfree software anyway.
> Lol I may try it myself one day. Does anyone know if there is a license
> that permits distributing modifications of the software only to people
> who have purchased the software? I don't think I would use such a thing
> myself, because I would want anyone, no matter how poor they may be, to
> be able to use my software if they want. Just curious if it exists.
> Storm
> --
> Registered Linux user number 508465:
> http://counter.li.org/
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
> http://www.stormdragon.us/
> Get yourself a Frostbox:
> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>
>
> On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 11:31 -0800, The Elf wrote:
>
>> loud applause, and I agree
>>
>> elf
>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>> for blind computer users and programmers
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:57 AM
>> Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
>>
>>
>> > This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
>> > what is driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
>> > Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same product
>> > is just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
>> > commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
>> >
>> > You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
>> > toast in it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker
>> > company calls you up to yell at you saying that you only had the right
>> > to make toast with their product and you must cease and desist your
>> > making of ego waffles with their toaster immediatly because you didn't
>> > buy the toaster, you bought the right to use the toaster for making
>> > toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast it'd make that company's head
>> > spin. You try that with any other product and you'd get the same
>> > result from consumers. It simply boggles me that software can be
>> > restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze so much
>> > juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user in
>> > such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff you
>> > licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind
>> > that there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I was
>> > IBM I'd be looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for
>> > all uses and cash in instead of deciding that it can only be used for
>> > one thing and leave it at the discretion of resellers like Freedom
>> > Scientific and their sort. I'd market it as: "Our synthesizer is so
>> > powerful it can be used for the following things: " (Long, exhaustive
>> > list follows ...)
>> >
>> > I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to which
>> > he carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a penny
>> > to the writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software
>> > is far too restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The
>> > software was paid for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally
>> > obtained. For another program to use that software just keeps it in
>> > the market as a viable product. Keeping other programs from using it
>> > ultimately results in loss of viability. What is so hard to
>> > understand about this?
>> >
>> > Alex M
>> > __________
>> > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:41:53 -0800
>
> yes and I know a game had permission to include eloquence in it, grins.
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:18 AM
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
>> fine.
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> Hi Elf,
>> You might want to see this page.
>>
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>
>> elf
>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>> for blind computer users and programmers
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>> present
>>> your legal analysis.
>>> Best,
>>> Dennis
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>computer
>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software on
>>>>> a
>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>> controled by
>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is this
>>>>> not
>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the files
>>>>> in
>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>> programs
>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>> choice
>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed. I
>>>>> have
>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>> some
>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly donating
>>>>> to
>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>>> backup
>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>> minutes
>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>>> for
>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>> screen
>>>>> reader.
>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>>> get
>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online. But
>>>>> open
>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>>> each
>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help people
>>>>> who
>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they sold
>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>> lot
>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>> money.
>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right
>>>>> to
>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He things
>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to pay
>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application it
>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an nvda
>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by IBM,
>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that they
>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my software
>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence I
>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the software.
>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute a
>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That point
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info: //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ty
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>> immediately
>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
>> affiliates.
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:44:22 -0800
>
> I see nothing to do with this other than a list of a few alternative
> synthesizers, half of them aren't able to handle English, and the ages old
> TTS from good old MS,
>
> I don't get the point?
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:18 AM
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
>> fine.
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> Hi Elf,
>> You might want to see this page.
>>
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>
>> elf
>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>> for blind computer users and programmers
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>> present
>>> your legal analysis.
>>> Best,
>>> Dennis
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>computer
>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software on
>>>>> a
>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>> controled by
>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is this
>>>>> not
>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the files
>>>>> in
>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>> programs
>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>> choice
>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed. I
>>>>> have
>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>> some
>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly donating
>>>>> to
>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>>> backup
>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>> minutes
>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>>> for
>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>> screen
>>>>> reader.
>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>>> get
>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online. But
>>>>> open
>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>>> each
>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help people
>>>>> who
>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they sold
>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>> lot
>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>> money.
>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right
>>>>> to
>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He things
>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to pay
>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application it
>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an nvda
>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by IBM,
>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that they
>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my software
>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence I
>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the software.
>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute a
>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That point
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info: //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ty
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>> immediately
>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
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>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Katherine Moss" <plymouthroamer285@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:27:59 -0500
>
> Most of that is the fault of Freedom Scientific those greedy people who know
> no limits of what they charge.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Midence
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:57 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
>
> This business of the right to use code only for specific things is what is
> driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
> Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same product is
> just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
> commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
>
> You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making toast in
> it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker company calls you
> up to yell at you saying that you only had the right to make toast with
> their product and you must cease and desist your making of ego waffles with
> their toaster immediatly because you didn't buy the toaster, you bought the
> right to use the toaster for making toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast
> it'd make that company's head spin. You try that with any other product and
> you'd get the same result from consumers. It simply boggles me that
> software can be restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze
> so much juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user
> in such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff you
> licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind that
> there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I was IBM I'd be
> looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for all uses and cash
> in instead of deciding that it can only be used for one thing and leave it
> at the discretion of resellers like Freedom Scientific and their sort. I'd
> market it as: "Our synthesizer is so powerful it can be used for the
> following things: " (Long, exhaustive list follows ...)
>
> I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to which he
> carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a penny to the
> writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software is far too
> restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The software was paid
> for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally obtained. For another
> program to use that software just keeps it in the market as a viable
> product. Keeping other programs from using it ultimately results in loss of
> viability. What is so hard to understand about this?
>
> Alex M
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Howard Traxler" <htraxler2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:28:12 -0600
>
> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat the
> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell nvda
> that it's on the machine?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Howard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
>> fine.
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> Hi Elf,
>> You might want to see this page.
>>
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>
>> elf
>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>> for blind computer users and programmers
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>> present
>>> your legal analysis.
>>> Best,
>>> Dennis
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>computer
>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software on
>>>>> a
>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>> controled by
>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is this
>>>>> not
>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the files
>>>>> in
>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>> programs
>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>> choice
>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed. I
>>>>> have
>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>> some
>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly donating
>>>>> to
>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>>> backup
>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>> minutes
>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>>> for
>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>> screen
>>>>> reader.
>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>>> get
>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online. But
>>>>> open
>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>>> each
>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help people
>>>>> who
>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they sold
>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>> lot
>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>> money.
>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right
>>>>> to
>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He things
>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to pay
>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application it
>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an nvda
>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by IBM,
>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that they
>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my software
>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence I
>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the software.
>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute a
>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That point
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info: //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ty
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>> immediately
>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
>> affiliates.
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:46:50 -0500
>
> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
>
> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
> 2. Extract the files.
> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may be
> under program files-x86
> 4. Also put the files in the /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice above
> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
> appdata/roming/NVDA
> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may need to
> show hidden files/folders.
>
>
> H.R. Soltani
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat the
> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell nvda
> that it's on the machine?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Howard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
>> fine.
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> Hi Elf,
>> You might want to see this page.
>>
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>
>> elf
>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>> for blind computer users and programmers
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>> present
>>> your legal analysis.
>>> Best,
>>> Dennis
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>computer
>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software on
>>>>> a
>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>> controled by
>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is this
>>>>> not
>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the files
>>>>> in
>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>> programs
>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>> choice
>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed. I
>>>>> have
>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>> some
>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly donating
>>>>> to
>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>>> backup
>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>> minutes
>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>>> for
>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>> screen
>>>>> reader.
>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>>> get
>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online. But
>>>>> open
>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>>> each
>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help people
>>>>> who
>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they sold
>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>> lot
>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>> money.
>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right
>>>>> to
>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He things
>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to pay
>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application it
>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an nvda
>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by IBM,
>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that they
>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my software
>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence I
>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the software.
>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute a
>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That point
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info: //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Ty
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If
>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>> immediately
>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
>> affiliates.
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Howard Traxler" <htraxler2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:56:05 -0600
>
> Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me anywhere.
> I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near the
> end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
> correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
> Howard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
>>
>> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>> 2. Extract the files.
>> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may be
>> under program files-x86
>> 4. Also put the files in the /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
>> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice
>> above
>> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
>> appdata/roming/NVDA
>> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may need to
>> show hidden files/folders.
>>
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat the
>> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell
>> nvda
>> that it's on the machine?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Howard
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
>>> fine.
>>>
>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>> Hi Elf,
>>> You might want to see this page.
>>>
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>>
>>> Jim Homme,
>>> Usability Services,
>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>>
>>> elf
>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>>> present
>>>> your legal analysis.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Dennis
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>>computer
>>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>>> controled by
>>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
>>>>>> files
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>>> programs
>>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
>>>>>> donating
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>>>> backup
>>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>>> minutes
>>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>>> screen
>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>>>>>> sold
>>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>>> lot
>>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>>> money.
>>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to
>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>>>>>>>>> nvda
>>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>>>>>>>>> IBM,
>>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
>>>>>>>>>> software
>>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
>>>>>>>>>>> software.
>>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>>
>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
>>> If
>>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>>> immediately
>>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
>>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
>>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
>>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
>>> affiliates.
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:02:30 -0500
>
> The link should be:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>
> The website I got it from is:
> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=3151&p=3
>
> H.R. Soltani
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:56 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
> Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me anywhere.
> I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near the
> end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
> correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
> Howard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
>>
>> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>> 2. Extract the files.
>> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may be
>> under program files-x86
>> 4. Also put the files in the /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
>> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice
>> above
>> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
>> appdata/roming/NVDA
>> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may need to
>> show hidden files/folders.
>>
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat the
>> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell
>> nvda
>> that it's on the machine?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Howard
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
>>> fine.
>>>
>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>> Hi Elf,
>>> You might want to see this page.
>>>
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>>
>>> Jim Homme,
>>> Usability Services,
>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>>
>>> elf
>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer on
>>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>>> present
>>>> your legal analysis.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Dennis
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>>computer
>>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>>> controled by
>>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
>>>>>> files
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>>> programs
>>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
>>>>>> donating
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>>>> backup
>>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>>> minutes
>>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>>> screen
>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper! If
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>>>>>> sold
>>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>>> lot
>>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better business
>>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>>> money.
>>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to use
>>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell its
>>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100 euros,
>>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to
>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>>>>>>>>> nvda
>>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>>>>>>>>> IBM,
>>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
>>>>>>>>>> software
>>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game to
>>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay Elocuence
>>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
>>>>>>>>>>> software.
>>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be paid.
>>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets say
>>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>>
>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
>>> If
>>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>>> immediately
>>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
>>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Howard Traxler" <htraxler2@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:40:32 -0600
>
> the line breaks after the n in eloquen
> then there are two spaces, a period, another space, then 20nvda.exe
>
> it looks like this:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen
> . 20nvda.exe
>
> I'll try the other address in your e-mail.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:02 PM
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> The link should be:
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>
>> The website I got it from is:
>> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=3151&p=3
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:56 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me
>> anywhere.
>> I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near the
>> end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
>> correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
>> Howard
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
>>>
>>> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>> 2. Extract the files.
>>> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may be
>>> under program files-x86
>>> 4. Also put the files in the /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
>>> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice
>>> above
>>> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
>>> appdata/roming/NVDA
>>> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may need
>>> to
>>> show hidden files/folders.
>>>
>>>
>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard
>>> Traxler
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat the
>>> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell
>>> nvda
>>> that it's on the machine?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Howard
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>>>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>>>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
>>>> fine.
>>>>
>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>> Hi Elf,
>>>> You might want to see this page.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>>>
>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>> Usability Services,
>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>>>
>>>> elf
>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer
>>>>> on
>>>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>>>> present
>>>>> your legal analysis.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Dennis
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>>>computer
>>>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>>>> controled by
>>>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>>>> programs
>>>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
>>>>>>> donating
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>>>>> backup
>>>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>>>> minutes
>>>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>>>>>>> sold
>>>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
>>>>>>> business
>>>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>>>> money.
>>>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
>>>>>>>> euros,
>>>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to
>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>>>>>>>>>> nvda
>>>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>>>>>>>>>> IBM,
>>>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
>>>>>>>>>>> software
>>>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
>>>>>>>>>>> Elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
>>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> software.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> paid.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
>>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
>>>> If
>>>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>>>> immediately
>>>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
>>>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
>>>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
>>>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
>>>> affiliates.
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:44:05 -0500
>
> Feel free to email me at: Soltani@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Must be the list.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:41 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
> the line breaks after the n in eloquen
> then there are two spaces, a period, another space, then 20nvda.exe
>
> it looks like this:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen
> . 20nvda.exe
>
> I'll try the other address in your e-mail.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:02 PM
> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
>
>
>> The link should be:
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>
>> The website I got it from is:
>> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=3151&p=3
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:56 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me
>> anywhere.
>> I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near the
>> end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
>> correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
>> Howard
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
>>>
>>> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>> 2. Extract the files.
>>> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may be
>>> under program files-x86
>>> 4. Also put the files in the /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
>>> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice
>>> above
>>> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
>>> appdata/roming/NVDA
>>> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may need
>>> to
>>> show hidden files/folders.
>>>
>>>
>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard
>>> Traxler
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat the
>>> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell
>>> nvda
>>> that it's on the machine?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Howard
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>>>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>>>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should be
>>>> fine.
>>>>
>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>> Hi Elf,
>>>> You might want to see this page.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>>>
>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>> Usability Services,
>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>>>
>>>> elf
>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer
>>>>> on
>>>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>>>> present
>>>>> your legal analysis.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Dennis
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>>>computer
>>>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it is
>>>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>>>> controled by
>>>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>>>> programs
>>>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
>>>>>>> donating
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader and
>>>>>>> backup
>>>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>>>> minutes
>>>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check boxes
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys to
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get costs
>>>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>>>>>>> sold
>>>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
>>>>>>> business
>>>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>>>> money.
>>>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the right
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is pathetic.
>>>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
>>>>>>>> euros,
>>>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to
>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>>>>>>>>>> nvda
>>>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>>>>>>>>>> IBM,
>>>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough that
>>>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
>>>>>>>>>>> software
>>>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected, because,
>>>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
>>>>>>>>>>> Elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
>>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> software.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece of
>>>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give you
>>>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep that
>>>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> paid.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football. Now
>>>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
>>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our own
>>>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code was
>>>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci, together
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't distribute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
>>>> If
>>>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>>>> immediately
>>>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not
>>>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's
>>>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
>>>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
>>>> affiliates.
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:50:48 -0500
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
> voice?
> From: Alex Hall <mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> So... I am still a bit confused. I am not passing judgement on anyone,
> just curious: is the exe linked to in a previous post legal (assuming
> you own a program with a licensed copy of Eloquence) or illegal?
>
> On 11/22/10, Client Services <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Feel free to email me at: Soltani@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Must be the list.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:41 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>> the line breaks after the n in eloquen
>> then there are two spaces, a period, another space, then 20nvda.exe
>>
>> it looks like this:
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen
>> . 20nvda.exe
>>
>> I'll try the other address in your e-mail.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:02 PM
>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>> voice?
>>
>>
>>> The link should be:
>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>
>>> The website I got it from is:
>>> http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=3151&p=3
>>>
>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard
>>> Traxler
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:56 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>> Thanks, but: the link you provide in your e-mail doesn't take me
>>> anywhere.
>>> I tried pasting the two lines together and taking out the spaces near the
>>> end and I tried finishing the word "eloquen" but can't seem to guess
>>> correctly. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
>>> Howard
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 8:46 PM
>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>> voice?
>>>
>>>
>>>> These are the instructions I read from AudioGames.net.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>> 2. Extract the files.
>>>> 3. Put the files in the program files/nvda/synthDrivers folder it may be
>>>> under program files-x86
>>>> 4. Also put the files in the /users/xxx/appdata/roming/nvda/synthDrivers
>>>> 5. Start NVDA and you should have it as your first synthesizer choice
>>>> above
>>>> Espeak. If you don't, you may have to delete the NVDA ini file under
>>>> appdata/roming/NVDA
>>>> 6. If you do not see the directory under your user folder, you may need
>>>> to
>>>> show hidden files/folders.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Howard
>>>> Traxler
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 9:28 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>> So here we are: I have jaws and nvda on my netbook. When I look aat
>>>> the
>>>> list of synths in nvda, I don't see eloquence in there. How do I tell
>>>> nvda
>>>> that it's on the machine?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Howard
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:18 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>> voice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The difference is, if you never purchased jaws, there was no license
>>>>> purchased. And elequoence does not bundle with NVDA.
>>>>> So, if you bought something already that has elequoence... you should
>>>>> be
>>>>> fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme,
>>>>> James
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:07 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Elf,
>>>>> You might want to see this page.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/wiki/FreeSpeechSynthesizerList
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Homme,
>>>>> Usability Services,
>>>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>>>> Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>>>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:52 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>> that's what I thought, thank you
>>>>>
>>>>> elf
>>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:20 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA new
>>>>> voice?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> What you are proposing is not illegal. I am a lawyer, so if a lawyer
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the list would care to discuss in what way this is illegal, please
>>>>>> present
>>>>>> your legal analysis.
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Dennis
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:00 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I didn't even copied the file:)
>>>>>>> At installation time, my software detects if jaws is installed.
>>>>>>> If it is, I simply link to that path.
>>>>>>> But if you say that it is ilegal, I will delete that portion of code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Client Services" <operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:53 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I did not realize there were issues with using elequoence on my
>>>>>>>>computer
>>>>>>>> with other screen readers! Especially since I paid so much for the
>>>>>>>> synthesizer and the screen reader. Never saw any licensing text for
>>>>>>>> eloquence. I disagree that it is illegal to use elequoence software
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> computer which is also running jaws or some other software that it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> bundled with. Now I am not a lawyer, but software is generally
>>>>>>>> controled by
>>>>>>>> the number of computers not the software you can use with it... is
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> correct? Does anybody have the licensing text for elequoence?
>>>>>>>> googled eloquence and NVDA and found this link:
>>>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/eloquen . 20nvda.exe
>>>>>>>> And there was some very clear instructions telling me to copy the
>>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> some folder called synthdrive or something like that on both my
>>>>>>>> programs
>>>>>>>> files/nvda folder and the one under appdata/roming/nvda
>>>>>>>> So then I erased the nVDA.ini file and when i loaded NVDA, I found a
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>> of ECI above my other choices under synthesizer.
>>>>>>>> This post and topic is on audiogames.net. And has not been removed.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to assume it is at least a gray area.
>>>>>>>> NVDA is quite an amazing program and I would figure there should be
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> better voices than the one it comes with. I am most certainly
>>>>>>>> donating
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the NVDA project as I really needed a good portable screen reader
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> backup
>>>>>>>> for Jaws that did not cost me an arm and a leg. In fact, just a few
>>>>>>>> minutes
>>>>>>>> a go, I had loaded a program, where NVDA could detect the check
>>>>>>>> boxes
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> options and Jaws could not. I unloaded jaws and loaded NVDA.
>>>>>>>> NVDA is just fantastic and I truly love the idea of an open source
>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>> reader.
>>>>>>>> I am certain that the next time Jaws offers a paid upgrade or trys
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> some money out of me, I will switch to NVDA permanently.
>>>>>>>> I normally never do this. In fact, I have never done this online.
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>> source software for the blind is very critical. We need to get
>>>>>>>> costs
>>>>>>>> lowered and help more people get the tools to survive and prosper!
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>>> of us would even just contribute $5 to $50, we could really help
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> are trying to make a difference.
>>>>>>>> Please help NVDA in any way you can.
>>>>>>>> There website is: http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>>>> I will contribute $20 myself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>> voice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't really agree with them doing whatever they want since they
>>>>>>>> sold
>>>>>>>> it. Look at jaws; many can't afford the prices, and there would be a
>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>> less cracks and a lot more people paying if they had a better
>>>>>>>> business
>>>>>>>> moddle that didn't include scruing their customers out of lots of
>>>>>>>> money.
>>>>>>>> I would not mind at all paying $5,$20 etc for eloquence and the
>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> use it with NVDA, but the whole "you just can't use it," is
>>>>>>>> pathetic.
>>>>>>>> On 11/21/2010 10:22 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Basically, he doesn't like the fact that eloquence is sold with the
>>>>>>>>> right to be used only by the application it is bundled with. He
>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>> nuance doesnt loose anything if other applications are allowed to
>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> eloquence as well.
>>>>>>>>> I personally don't agree and think any company is allowed to sell
>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> software with any license they want.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AS for legal eloquence with nvda, the only option I know about is
>>>>>>>>> penvda, a u3 usb stick with nvda on it, wihch costs around 100
>>>>>>>>> euros,
>>>>>>>>> way above $100.
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:55 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA
>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea what black ares said in his messsage. From what I
>>>>>>>>>> gather, something about 5 dollars... Is there a paid version of
>>>>>>>>>> eloquence? I know there's voxen for *nix is $5. I'd be willing to
>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>> the same to be able to use it with NVDA on windows.
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2010 9:43 AM, Stefan Moisei wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> It's quite simple, in my view.
>>>>>>>>>>> Eci's license says that eci can be used only with the application
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> is distributed with. Period.
>>>>>>>>>>> When those guys from NVDA did what you said, i.e. they made an
>>>>>>>>>>> nvda
>>>>>>>>>>> eci driver without embedding eci itself, they were contacted by
>>>>>>>>>>> IBM,
>>>>>>>>>>> makers of home page reader, an app which had eloquence in it. IBM
>>>>>>>>>>> requested NVAccess to remove the driver, and so they did.
>>>>>>>>>>> If IBM was right or not, I can't say. I personally believe that
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> were, I think IBM read carefully the license before contacting
>>>>>>>>>>> NVAccess.
>>>>>>>>>>> The license may be different for jaws, but I don't think that
>>>>>>>>>>> either. It seems eloquence is sold to a developer and only that
>>>>>>>>>>> developer has the right to use the synth.
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
>>>>>>>>>>> <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
>>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So let talk about the case:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I bought Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws came with elocuence.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I Make a software that interfaces with eci and speaks trough
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>>>>> My program has no eci or elocuence in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It simply uses what is on the computer.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If the user has let say jaws, ok it has elocuence so my software
>>>>>>>>>>>> speaks.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If the user has not jaws, there is no ECI and that is, my
>>>>>>>>>>>> software
>>>>>>>>>>>> can not speak using eci.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So the one who sells Jaws with elocuence is not afected,
>>>>>>>>>>>> because,
>>>>>>>>>>>> to use my software with elocuence, the user must have or buy
>>>>>>>>>>>> elocuence separately so pay that money.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Where is the problem here?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see where the elocuence team loose!
>>>>>>>>>>>> So back to your example, if using your software needs that game
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be installed so to be boght from me, there is no reason to be un
>>>>>>>>>>>> happy.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The model you describe here is that, if I buy jaws with
>>>>>>>>>>>> elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> pay 5 dolar for elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>>> But if I wana use elocuence in my application I must pay
>>>>>>>>>>>> Elocuence
>>>>>>>>>>>> another 5 dolar, so I pay twice for same code.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I know that they don't sell code, but rights to use the code and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is what I don't like.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA
>>>>>>>>>>>> new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason its illegal, is because the programmer of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> software.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Put code in that software to allow its use with another piece
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> software., and they paid for that right. now just because that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> software comes with another chunk of software. Does not give
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the right to use it, because you didn't pay for it. To keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> software billable. The program uses special code that lets what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever software that wants to use it the right, but has to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its all about money and that chunk of software is not free.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you wrote a score keeper for a friends game say football.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it works great and he gave you $10. Now both are happy and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the thought that you can get $10 for that code. now lets
>>>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me and a few other programmers take that code. use it in our
>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>>>>>> games and sell those games. now wouldn't you feel like you get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your $10 too? When we give you nothing and act like the code
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> free, because it came with another game?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> At 08:57 AM 11/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why, If I have a legal copy of eci,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not allowed to use it from another screen reader If I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the possibility.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I write the program, I don't embed any kind of synth in it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I search on the target machine what synths are there and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to use one of them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why this is ilegal...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan Moisei"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <vortex37@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's what the NVDA devs have to say about the subject:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/blog/NVDAAndEloquenceSituation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, using eci api from another program if you don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distribute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of eloquence with it is illegal, it seems. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the specs are freely available on the web.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Btw, that NVDA driver for eloquence really exists, but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal, so it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not supported by the developers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "QuentinC"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <quentinc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: NVDA new voice?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've also heard whispers of an eloquence thing floating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I'm not sure if that's legal or if someone can give it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I read somewhere that using eloquence outside of jaws or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually illegal. I don't know if it is really true. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really be clarified, perhaps in a separate thread, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionnal question: if eloquence is already installed on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite easy to open the DLL and start to use the functions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on this DLL is even available on the web. Is that illegal ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really wish that eloquence would be easily available in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely legally. Because espeak is... how to say...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon FIOS support tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Never offend people with style when you can offend them with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> substance."
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Sam Brown
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blindeudora list owner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe or info:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
>>>>> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
>>>>> If
>>>>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
>>>>> immediately
>>>>> and then delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must
>>>>> not
>>>>> keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the
>>>>> author's
>>>>> prior permission. The views expressed in this e-mail message do not
>>>>> necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or
>>>>> affiliates.
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Have a great day,
> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 06:33:31 +0200
>
> yep.
> Devexpress offer their components with source, but they are expensive.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Storm Dragon
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 12:38 AM
> Subject: Re: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
>
>
> Hi,
> I think open source is the best, in deed the only way to go. Just because
> it's open source doesn't mean it has to be free as in "free beer".
> I wonder if anyone has tried making a program that is open source and
> charging like $10 or so for it? If the price isn't stupid I am sure people,
> most people, would pay for it. You'd always have people distributing free
> copies, but that happens with nonfree software anyway. Lol I may try it
> myself one day. Does anyone know if there is a license that permits
> distributing modifications of the software only to people who have purchased
> the software? I don't think I would use such a thing myself, because I would
> want anyone, no matter how poor they may be, to be able to use my software
> if they want. Just curious if it exists.
> Storm
> --
> Registered Linux user number 508465:
> http://counter.li.org/
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
> http://www.stormdragon.us/
> Get yourself a Frostbox:
> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>
>
>
> On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 11:31 -0800, The Elf wrote:
> loud applause, and I agree
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:57 AM
> Subject: Ree: eloquence outside programs it is embedded in was: NVDA n
>
>
>> This business of the right to use code only for specific things is
>> what is driving me away from windows altogether and into Linux.
>> Making the consumer pay again and again and again for the same product
>> is just greedy and I completely disagree with the practice. No other
>> commercial model allows for such a thing. Here's what I mean:
>>
>> You go off and buy a toaster. The instructions talk about making
>> toast in it. You put ego waffles in it one day. The toaster-maker
>> company calls you up to yell at you saying that you only had the right
>> to make toast with their product and you must cease and desist your
>> making of ego waffles with their toaster immediatly because you didn't
>> buy the toaster, you bought the right to use the toaster for making
>> toast. I'd chunk that toaster so fast it'd make that company's head
>> spin. You try that with any other product and you'd get the same
>> result from consumers. It simply boggles me that software can be
>> restricted that way. I mean, come on! You can only squeeze so much
>> juice out of a stone. I will never write code that limits the user in
>> such a way. It is a recipe for obscurity. The minute the stuff you
>> licensed it's use for becomes obselete, so does your code never mind
>> that there have now been developed other uses for your code. If I was
>> IBM I'd be looking for ways to sell cheap versions of their code for
>> all uses and cash in instead of deciding that it can only be used for
>> one thing and leave it at the discretion of resellers like Freedom
>> Scientific and their sort. I'd market it as: "Our synthesizer is so
>> powerful it can be used for the following things: " (Long, exhaustive
>> list follows ...)
>>
>> I don't agree with a lot of what Stallman says and the extent to which
>> he carries his philosophy (unlimited redistribution with never a penny
>> to the writer) but he is right about the fact that a lot of software
>> is far too restrictive to the end user. This is a classic case. The
>> software was paid for by the end user. It hasn't been illegally
>> obtained. For another program to use that software just keeps it in
>> the market as a viable product. Keeping other programs from using it
>> ultimately results in loss of viability. What is so hard to
>> understand about this?
>>
>> Alex M
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
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