Re: More C programming help

  • From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 22:23:11 -0400

Hi John,

I hesitate to enter this, it is a long time since I have done much programming 
and little in C or C++, I did a university course though by extension. There 
are apparently some pretty high powered programmers here so I feel a little 
self conscious. I don't have a compiler either so I can't test your code but I 
do see at least one misplaced opening brace, I'll bracket it in Xs like this, 
X{X:
in the message you sent below.

Another problem I see is that although you will collect employee information 
five times you will only print it once and that will be for the last employee. 
Your FOR loop will collect the hours and wages and such, do the calculations 
then increment i and prompt again until I is 5 then it will fall through and 
print only one, the last employee.

It may be that your programme is to collect input data for five employees then 
print each in turn or it may be that it collects the data on each employee in 
turn then print the calculations for that employee before going to collect data 
for the next we don't have those specifications.

If the first scenario then they are probably expecting you to begin using 
arrays.

Restructuring your code a little could get rid of the else statement too. This 
is more a matter of style than substance but I rather enjoy elegant code though 
I haven't written a lot of it myself.

Before you turn it in, tidy up some of your comments. In my experience the 
teachers like lots of commented code but it could be more consistent. I realize 
that this is a work in progress and I can tell you when I was doing this sort 
of school work I spent quite a bit of time before handing it in on prettying up 
the presentation.

This is not the sort of thing to make yourself sick over and it looks to me 
like it is not a particularly important course.

This looks like a big problem for you, my e-mail address is below should you 
want to contact me privately off list. Before you do let us see what the 
experts on the list have to say, like I said, my memory is failing it is easily 
ten years ago since I did any of this stuff, you may do better with the group. 
I will look to see if I can find my old C compiler in the mean time. God knows 
I can't remember much about which libraries need including and that has 
probably since changed but hopefully the list can nudge my memory on that too.

Anyway, for what it is worth I am willing to have a go at helping. I am not 
however a programmer, these days not even a particularly active amateur.



Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
DLeavens@xxxxxxx
Skype DaleLeavens
Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Miller" <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: More C programming help


> When I do it that way for some reaosn it misses half the code but here's the 
> code and warning.
> 
> (start code)
> #include <stdio.h>
> 
> int main (void)
> 
> {
> 
> int clock;
> 
> /* clock number */
> 
> float gross;
> 
> /* gross pay */
> 
> float hours;
> 
> /* hours worked */
> 
> float overtime;
> 
> float overtimepay;
> 
> float wage;
> 
> /* hourly wage */
> 
> X{X
> 
> int i;
> 
> /* Pr,ompt for employee information */
> 
> for (i = 0; i <=5; ++i)
/* I believe the opening brace { should go here*/
> 
> printf("enter your employee number: ");
> 
> scanf_s("%d", &clock);
> 
> printf("Enter the wage: ");
> 
> scanf_s("%f", &wage);
> 
> printf("Enter number of hours worked: ");
> 
> scanf_s("%f", &hours);
> 
> /* attempting if statement for overtime*/
> 
> if ( hours > 40 )
> 
> { /*begin if*/
> 
> overtime = hours - 40;
> 
> overtimepay = 0.5 * overtime;
> 
> gross = wage * hours + overtimepay;
> 
> } /*end if*/
> 
> else
> 
> { /*begin else*/
> 
> gross = wage * hours;
> 
> } /*end else*/
> 
> } /* end for */
> 
> 
> /* calculate gross pay */
> 
> /* print out employee information to the screen */
> 
> printf ("\t----------------------------------------------------------\n");
> 
> printf ("\tClock#        Wage        Hours        Gross\n");
> 
> printf ("\t----------------------------------------------------------\n");
> 
> printf ("\t%06i %5.2f %5.1f %7.2f\n",clock,wage,hours,gross);
> 
> printf("This employee worked %f hours with a per-hour basis of %f.\n", 
> hours, wage);
> 
> printf(" gross pay is %f.\n", gross);
> 
> return 0;
> 
> }
> 
> (end code)
> 
> 
> 
> and warning is:
> 
> Warning 1 warning C4244: '=' : conversion from 'double' to 'float', possible 
> loss of data
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jackie McBride" <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: More C programming help
> 
> 
> Let's see the code & the warning.
> 
> I gotta go feed hubby now & get him off 2 work.  I probably will be
> back in about an hour or so.  Send the code & the warning--press ctrl
> insert w 2 virtualize the window, press ctrl a to select all, & ctrl c
> 2 copy it 4 me.
> 
> On 10/3/07, John Miller <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Yeah,  no luck.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jackie McBride" <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: More C programming help
>>
>>
>> Did u try .5?
>>
>> On 10/3/07, John Miller <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > OK, latest is, it's giving me that warning I posted a couple minutes ago
>> > and
>> > when I see where that warning points to, it's this line here.
>> > overtimepay = 0.5 * overtime;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Now, if I take out the 0. in 0.5, and leave it as just 5, the warning 
>> > goes
>> > away. Of course that will make the program not do what I want, but can
>> > some
>> > one give me ideas to fix that, or a reason that might help? It's that
>> > close
>> > and even with that warning, it actually does work so I'd have no problem
>> > leaving it there but based on what the teacher got me for last week, a
>> > warning probably means an F or close to it. Besides, it's that close, so
>> > very very close.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Jackie McBride" <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:31 PM
>> > Subject: Re: More C programming help
>> >
>> >
>> > John, yeah, that's the kind of error u go back to when your head's
>> > clear & go "dugh!"  Lol!  I *hate* it when that happens!  Send the
>> > code & I'll see if I can figure it out.  U might also wanna use text
>> > pal or something similar, which shows u where matching braces are.
>> >
>> > 1 thing I like 2 do when I'm coding is to comment the braces, as per
>> > the following:
>> > main()
>> > {/*begins main*/
>> > int i;
>> > unsigned int number;
>> > for (i=0; i < 5; i++)
>> > {/*begins for loop*/
>> > scanf("%d",&number);
>> > if number <= 9)
>> > printf("single digit territory."
>> > elif number > 9 && number < 100)
>> > printf("double digits");
>> > else
>> > printf("now that's a big number");
>> > }/*ends for loop*/
>> > }/*ends main*/
>> >
>> > BTW, I always put my ending brace & comments there immediately after
>> > my beginning brace, then go up a line, press enter, & write the code.
>> > That way the brace is filled in & u don't forget about it.  It took me
>> > a lot of years of writing code 2 figure that 1 out & it's saved me a
>> > *bunch* of time trying 2 backtrack & figure out where I missed a
>> > brace, or, if the program isn't behaving like I want, 2 c the logic of
>> > where I've gone wrong w/an errant brace, which, though it may match,
>> > is in fact in the wrong place 2 do what the program was supposed 2 do.
>> >
>> > HTH.
>> >
>> > On 10/3/07, John Miller <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > > OK, I thought of that just before getting this email and did that, 
>> > > looks
>> > > like the only error left is a fatal one about a brace before the end 
>> > > of
>> > > the
>> > > file or something, I'm guessing I have the bracing wrong but I don't 
>> > > see
>> > > it,
>> > > looks like for every opening brace I have a closing one but I'm closer
>> > > and
>> > > I
>> > > like this way better actually if I can get rid of this error.
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Jackie McBride" <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
>> > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:31 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: More C programming help
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > John:
>> > >
>> > > At the top of every function, you've gotta have a section like:
>> > > int clock;
>> > > float wage;
>> > > float hours;
>> > > float overtime;
>> > > float overtimepay.
>> > >
>> > > That is a variable declaration.  U failed 2 declare those variables u
>> > > just added to your program.
>> > >
>> > > On 10/3/07, John Miller <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > > > The "overtime = 40" line is declaring the variable isn't it? That's
>> > > > what
>> > > > I
>> > > > thought.
>> > > > Which way would you do it? I can get the first way I was doing it to
>> > > > work,
>> > > > but with the warning I posted a while ago and after that it works 
>> > > > but
>> > > > comes
>> > > > up with a total that's slightly off. Or this way where that is the
>> > > > problem
>> > > > as well as, I think the same warning. I'd have to try it again to 
>> > > > see
>> > > > if
>> > > > it's the same warning or not. There was a fatal error in there too 
>> > > > but
>> > > > I
>> > > > think that was something about the braces, very likely that will be
>> > > > fixed
>> > > > when the rest of it's fixed.
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Martin Slack" <m.g.slack@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:10 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: More C programming help
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi John,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >  The change in formula which you are trying is not strictly
>> > > > > necessary,
>> > > > > but
>> > > > > bear in mind that for the c language, *ANY* variables you use 
>> > > > > *MUST*
>> > > > > be
>> > > > > declared first.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >  hth
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Martin
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > From: "John Miller" <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:30 PM
>> > > > > Subject: Re: More C programming help
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >>I tried that and over time and overtime pay undeclared variables 
>> > > > >>is
>> > > > >>the
>> > > > >>error it likes to torture me with now.
>> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > >> From: "TJ McElroy" <raider.59@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 1:48 PM
>> > > > >> Subject: Re: More C programming help
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>> Your problem:
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>> gross = wage * hours + 0.5 (hours - 40);
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> for some reason, the compiler doesn't like it.
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> ***
>> > > > >>> The compiler does not like it, because it thinks that
>> > > > >>> 0.5 (hours - 40);
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> is a function call.
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> Try breaking the if statement into two statements
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> if ( hours > 40 ) {
>> > > > >>> overTime = hours - 40;
>> > > > >>> overTimePay = .05 * overTime;
>> > > > >>> gross = wage * hours + overTimePay;
>> > > > >>> } else {
>> > > > >>> gross = wage * hours;
>> > > > >>> }
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> ***
>> > > > >>> also by not having this if statement inside the for loop,
>> > > > >>> it will calculate all of the employees time, not
>> > > > >>> each individual employee.
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> hth
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > >>> From: "John Miller" <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:10 PM
>> > > > >>> Subject: Re: More C programming help
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>> Well, the what the program should do is there, but the line 
>> > > > >>>> that
>> > > > >>>> is
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>> gross = wage * hours + 0.5 (hours - 40);
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>> for some reason, the compiler doesn't like it.
>> > > > >>>> error is
>> > > > >>>> Error 1 error C2064: term does not evaluate to a function
>> > > > >>>> taking -22
>> > > > >>>> arguments
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>> I usually do walk away for a bit when I get frustrated but it's
>> > > > >>>> the
>> > > > >>>> headaches I get after going back a few times that are really
>> > > > >>>> starting
>> > > > >>>> to concern me. I know I'm close, if I do different, easier math
>> > > > >>>> in
>> > > > >>>> that
>> > > > >>>> line like just adding 1 or something it will work changing it a
>> > > > >>>> bit,
>> > > > >>>> but when I do it this way, which looks right to me, it just
>> > > > >>>> doesn't
>> > > > >>>> like it. I'm sure I'm missing something simple again. I've been
>> > > > >>>> close
>> > > > >>>> right along I feel like, but lagging behind, I'm not sure if 
>> > > > >>>> it's
>> > > > >>>> me,
>> > > > >>>> a
>> > > > >>>> Braille display would have probably helped with the last one 
>> > > > >>>> but
>> > > > >>>> I
>> > > > >>>> can't afford that and was pretty much told "no" by the state 
>> > > > >>>> when
>> > > > >>>> I
>> > > > >>>> wanted one for another class, it's too late now anyway week 5 
>> > > > >>>> or
>> > > > >>>> 10
>> > > > >>>> starts tomorrow.
>> > > > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > >>>> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:01 AM
>> > > > >>>> Subject: Re: More C programming help
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>> Hello John,
>> > > > >>>>> Let me tell you this: when you look at a hard programming task
>> > > > >>>>> as
>> > > > >>>>> if
>> > > > >>>>> it was a person and it was your enemy the probability of 
>> > > > >>>>> comming
>> > > > >>>>> with
>> > > > >>>>> the solution is smaller. Try to look at it as if you did not
>> > > > >>>>> deppend
>> > > > >>>>> on that, if you get frustrated of thinking and going to 
>> > > > >>>>> aparent
>> > > > >>>>> noware
>> > > > >>>>> then go take a break, and back again to it latter. Don't start
>> > > > >>>>> thinking that you're likely to fail or that you don't like to
>> > > > >>>>> have
>> > > > >>>>> all
>> > > > >>>>> the work to try it again and again ... It may appear a joke, 
>> > > > >>>>> but
>> > > > >>>>> it
>> > > > >>>>> does make the difference if you get yourself in a relaxed stat
>> > > > >>>>> so
>> > > > >>>>> you
>> > > > >>>>> can consentrate more on your problem and less in your fears 
>> > > > >>>>> and
>> > > > >>>>> frustrations ...
>> > > > >>>>> This said, I'll ask you to explain me what you're trying to 
>> > > > >>>>> do,
>> > > > >>>>> because I can not see what is the problem here.
>> > > > >>>>> I didn't try to compile your code but the sintax seen ok ... 
>> > > > >>>>> so
>> > > > >>>>> what
>> > > > >>>>> is the problem?
>> > > > >>>>> Marlon
>> > > > >>>>> 2007/10/3, John Miller <n1umj@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
>> > > > >>>>>> Hi everyone.
>> > > > >>>>>> Here we go again, now, where I should be at with this program
>> > > > >>>>>> is,
>> > > > >>>>>> a
>> > > > >>>>>> program
>> > > > >>>>>> that will figure out the wages for 5 employees, and now 
>> > > > >>>>>> adding
>> > > > >>>>>> an
>> > > > >>>>>> if
>> > > > >>>>>> statement to figure out overtime. I've been working on this 
>> > > > >>>>>> for
>> > > > >>>>>> 2
>> > > > >>>>>> days and
>> > > > >>>>>> this is what the code ends up looking like, I can make it 
>> > > > >>>>>> work
>> > > > >>>>>> if
>> > > > >>>>>> I
>> > > > >>>>>> change
>> > > > >>>>>> it to do the wrong thing, but when it comes time to get it
>> > > > >>>>>> right,
>> > > > >>>>>> I
>> > > > >>>>>> can't
>> > > > >>>>>> make it work and I'm at a complete loss. If I do it with
>> > > > >>>>>> different
>> > > > >>>>>> math,
>> > > > >>>>>> just make it add a few things with the same coding, that 
>> > > > >>>>>> works
>> > > > >>>>>> so
>> > > > >>>>>> I
>> > > > >>>>>> knwo I'm
>> > > > >>>>>> on the right track, but when it comes to doing the finished
>> > > > >>>>>> project,
>> > > > >>>>>> I'm
>> > > > >>>>>> missing something. I had to stop yesterday for the second 
>> > > > >>>>>> worst
>> > > > >>>>>> headache
>> > > > >>>>>> I've ever had in my life, seems like I get those headaches
>> > > > >>>>>> every
>> > > > >>>>>> time
>> > > > >>>>>> I work
>> > > > >>>>>> on this junk but I need the class.
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> (begin code(
>> > > > >>>>>> #include <stdio.h>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> int main (void)
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> {
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> int clock;
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> /* clock number */
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> float gross;
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> /* gross pay */
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> float hours;
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> /* hours worked */
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> float wage;
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> /* hourly wage */
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> {
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> int i;
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> /* Prompt for employee information */
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> for (i = 0; i <=5; ++i)
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf("enter your employee number: ");
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> scanf_s("%d", &clock);
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf("Enter the wage: ");
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> scanf_s("%f", &wage);
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf("Enter number of hours worked: ");
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> scanf_s("%f", &hours);
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> } /* end for */
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> /* attempting if statement for overtime*/
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> if ( hours > 40 )
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> /* calculate gross pay */
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> gross = wage * hours + 0.5 (hours - 40);
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> else gross = wage * hours;
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> /* print out employee information to the screen */
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > ("\t----------------------------------------------------------\n");
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf ("\tClock#        Wage        Hours        Gross\n");
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > ("\t----------------------------------------------------------\n");
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf ("\t%06i %5.2f %5.1f %7.2f\n",clock,wage,hours,gross);
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf("This employee worked %f hours with a per-hour basis 
>> > > > >>>>>> of
>> > > > >>>>>> %f.\n",
>> > > > >>>>>> hours, wage);
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> printf(" gross pay is %f.\n", gross);
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> return 0;
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> }
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> *end code
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> __________
>> > > > >>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > > >>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>> --
>> > > > >>>>> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people
>> > > > >>>>> just
>> > > > >>>>> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the 
>> > > > >>>>> system,
>> > > > >>>>> for
>> > > > >>>>> free."
>> > > > >>>>> Linus Torvalds
>> > > > >>>>> __________
>> > > > >>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > > >>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>> __________
>> > > > >>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > > >>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > > > >>> __________
>> > > > >>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > > >>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> __________
>> > > > >> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > > >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > > > __________
>> > > > > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > __________
>> > > > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Jackie McBride
>> > > Check out my homepage at:
>> > > www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>> > > __________
>> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > >
>> > > __________
>> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jackie McBride
>> > Check out my homepage at:
>> > www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>> > __________
>> > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >
>> > __________
>> > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jackie McBride
>> Check out my homepage at:
>> www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jackie McBride
> Check out my homepage at:
> www.abletec.serverheaven.net
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
>
__________
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