Re: Looking At Python Programming

  • From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 08:52:33 -0600

There are ides that help out with Python, but there is a difference in formatting code, and python's indentation requirement for blocks.

On 6/5/2011 11:20 PM, Katherine Moss wrote:
That's the one reason why I fell in love with the way Visual Studio does 
things.  It just takes care of the stylistic issues for you.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Tseng
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 1:12 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Looking At Python Programming

Chris,

Agreed with all of your points; however, I'm not as certain about the rec 
against py braces for those who are venturing into programming for the first or 
even second time.

In general, I'm more inclined to advise new blind programmers to stay focused 
on the actual task of programming (control flow, conditionals, logic, loops, 
etc.) rather than stylistic issues.  In python, of course, indentation, a 
traditional style concern, becomes a syntactic feature.  The beginner must cope 
with this from the beginning complicating the learning process.  Seeing the 
true hierarchical relationship of the code rather than a flat list of serial 
operations takes time and experience.  This is of course the right way to think 
of code as it leads one to actually discover how compilers and interpreters are 
implemented.

This isn't to say that blind programmers shouldn't abide by style rules --- far 
from it as it's a basic requirement for working with sighted programmers, 
results in better design/maintainability/clarity, etc.  It's just that style 
(of which indentation is only one
component) doesn't come as naturally for blind coders as it has a basis in 
visual styling.  I'd guess that most blind coders I've reviewed have a very 
loose grasp of style.  To be honest, I had a loose grip on style until I 
started hacking on common codebases with sighted people.

More branches for thought,
David

On 6/5/11, Q<q@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
While PyBraces and similar is a generally good idea, I strongly
recommend actually getting familiar with the indentation scheme of Python.
As David wrote, this is generally quite simple with a screen reader.
It has many benefits:
. It allows you to code anywhere with Python installed, a far greater
subset of computers than that with both Python and PyBraces installed.
. When writing in languages which use braces for scope control, such
as C, Java, C++, whatever, indentation is still important. If you're
working on code that you're sharing with sighted people, the
expectation will be that you indent. Python gets you into this habit.
. Using indentation alone is generally more efficient for
communicating information to a blind person. Observe:

def do_something(arg1, arg2): {
assert ([isinstance(i, (int, long)) for i in arg1, arg2]) if arg1<
arg2: { #Take an action here }
else: {
#Do something else here
}
}

Compare to:

def do_something(arg1, arg2):
(one space.) assert ([isinstance(i, (int, long)) for i in arg1, arg2])
if arg1<  arg2:
(2 spaces.) #do something here
(one space.): else:
(two spaces.) #Something else

I placed in leading parentheses the text which is spoken by the screen
reader as you navigate from line to line. Note that if two lines are
on the same indentation, the indentation will not be announced. Which
makes it really trivial to actually spot where indentation changes.
Compare to braces, where you have to keep in your head not only code
scope, but what braces go with what, as well as brace matching heuristics.
When working in a braced language, I often use comments to indicate
what the closing brace signifies. For instance } //Endif, } //end
function do_something. This is simply something which is unnecessary
when reading an indented language.

In short, spend the slight extra time to do it right, and you'll reap
the benefits, just like most other things in life, and especially
programming.

I welcome your thoughts and feedback,
Q



On 6/5/2011 7:02 PM, David Tseng wrote:
As another aside, it's not difficult to write a script (given
whatever screen reader you're using) to announce the indentation of a
given body of text.  Just override the say line (prev, current, next)
and do the preprocessing to calculate the space/tabs indent before
speaking the line's contents.

With that said, not sure why no one's pointed out that Jaws comes
with such a feature already:
Jaws-v,
type "indent"
toggle indent to "indicate".


Sucha feature exists in other screen readers as well.

Finally, though I've not used it, EdSharp and something called the
settings packager contains this so beloved but mysterious
SoundsForStuff sound scheme.  Not sure why all the folks on list who
use EdSharp haven't piped up about this, but there you go.
http://empowermentzone.com/EdSharp.htm

On 6/5/11, Trouble<trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
If you have jaws 8 and up then you have the sound schemes feature.
There has to be a configuration file for the program being used for
it to show.
It will use any sound you give it for what ever action you want it
to take.
At 07:48 AM 6/5/2011, you wrote:
I originally got it from someone on this list, I think it was James
Hommes. No, it does not come with jaws by default. However, you can
tell jaws to speak indentation if you have no other option.

On 6/5/11, Oriol Gómez<ogomez.s92@xxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
Where is this sounds4stuff scheme? I don't htink ti comes with jaws.

On 6/5/11, Ken Perry<whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
You will learn to not make mistakes like this over time but as a
starter you might want to use the ed sharp command to change your
python from normal to braces then look at the output.  It will
help you find the problem by failing to put braces where you
think they should be.



Ken

From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Harmony Neil
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 4:38 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Looking At Python Programming



I can't remember if attachments are permitted on this list or
not, so I apologize in advance. I've been looking at functions
and stuff in the python tutorials and although I copied them
character for character, as far as I know, I get an error saying
that there is an unexpected indentation.
Would
anyone be able to let me know if you find any problems with the
indentation?

Thanks,

Harmony.


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