RE: Java versus Python

  • From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:00:50 -0400

Well we will see if he switches when he goes full graphics then.  I am not
saying he won't I just can't wait to see what he does next.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
Coale
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 6:28 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python

Sort of. In the technical sense, it is. However, it is extremely basic 
that any software rasterizer should be able to handle it (which is why 
it runs fine in Java). The entire world is a collection of axis-aligned 
cubes -- that means, really, there isn't that much work to  be done. 
There are reasons why commercial games (that are mass-published, like 
Halo, Call of Duty, etc.) do NOT use Java.

But this is slightly off topic...

On 6/19/2011 1:53 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
> Mind craft is 3d graphics.
>
> ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
> Tyler
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 4:28 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>
>   >and I also develop games.
>   From what I understand, Java is pretty fast now with jit, but it's
> still not the best choice for game development, IMO. Game development on
> our side though is a lot different from what Chris does; the 3-d
> graphics use a ton of resources depending on the intensity of the game
> and how high in graphics it is.
> On 6/19/2011 2:14 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>> Hmm well I don't know about that the guy who wrote Mind craft is now what
>> over 65 million dollars in the good and he wrote it in Java.  I am not
> sure
>> I discount any language that gets the job done and I also develop games.
>>
>> ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>> Coale
>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 3:37 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>
>> Yeah, I'm sure Java can get the job done; I just prefer not to use it.
>> It's on the last of my list of languages I would use for a project
>> (especially since I do game development).
>>
>> On 6/19/2011 12:32 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>> Snicker I have my problems with Java as well but we code in what we must
>> and
>>> if you can't find a fault in a language you're not trying hard enough.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>>> Coale
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 2:35 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>
>>> You may not be against Java, but I sure am! (just thought I'd throw that
>>> out there for the record)
>>>
>>> On 6/19/2011 11:03 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>>>> Thanks. I'm not -against- Java, I was just trying to throw some valid
>>>> reasons into the conversation. Most of the points against python were
>>>> invalid and not true.
>>>> On 6/19/2011 11:58 AM, black ares wrote:
>>>>> my messages were written before your messages where you found these
>>>>> asserts.
>>>>> Until my messages you showed a very python oriented atitude and
>>>>> against java and other like this for no matter what args.
>>>>> But after I have seen your messages and I have understood that you
>>>>> can admit some times that python is not good for all.
>>>>> Very well you simply have proven that you are more than a begginer in
>>>>> this area.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>>>>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 5:09 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem here is not that Ken and his team had or had not a good
>>>>>> planing session, but that Tilor aserts some things wich are not so
>>>>>> real.
>>>>>> What,
>>>>>> 1) That python shouldn't be used as the core of a system on a box
>>>>>> like the Icon with the specs it has.
>>>>>> 2) That python may not be the choice for -everything-
>>>>>> 3) That a -good- coder knows what language to use, and why?
>>>>>> What is "not so real," about that?
>>>>>> On 6/19/2011 1:59 AM, black ares wrote:
>>>>>>> Sure, but this don't minimise the drawbacks of python.
>>>>>>> And some things you discover after you've implemented part of the
>>>>>>> real system, when you realy put to work that language.
>>>>>>> The problem here is not that Ken and his team had or had not a good
>>>>>>> planing session, but that Tilor aserts some things wich are not so
>>>>>>> real.
>>>>>>> I agree that in a good planing session you might see how bad python
>>>>>>> works and choose another technology for a "performance critical"
>>>>>>> software.
>>>>>>> But sometimes the truth is hidden and you get excited because of
>>>>>>> the enthusiasm of the comunity around a language and you decide to
>>>>>>> give a try.
>>>>>>> Hearing Tiller I now might decide to do the next fifa 2012 in
>>>>>>> python because it is better than c++ or other language, I will get
>>>>>>> some productivity increase and you know, who want not to deliver
>>>>>>> earlier.
>>>>>>> Lucky me that I've tried some "open source" "free" languages and I
>>>>>>> decided that most of them are poorly implemented, targeted only to
>>>>>>> simple tasks like showing infos on a little html webpage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Coale"
>>>>>>> <ccoale427@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:05 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please don't say you "broke" Python, as you did not. What you mean
>>>>>>>> to say is that your development team broke your project. I'm
>>>>>>>> unsure if you are referring to the execution speed of Python or
>>>>>>>> the development time it took you to create applications; if you
>>>>>>>> are referring to the former, then I must say that you (and/or your
>>>>>>>> development team) did poor project planning. Did you not know that
>>>>>>>> Python tends to be an interpreted language? That's something to
>>>>>>>> consider when you are developing a performance-critical
application.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the indentation issue -- why was this not considered before
>>>>>>>> the project started? Many people have no problems with the
>>>>>>>> indentations, though, admittedly, some do. This should have been
>>>>>>>> one of the things to consider during the planning stage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/18/2011 2:42 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sina I have told Tylor that I will not respond to anything he
>>>>>>>>> posts so this
>>>>>>>>> is pushing it to answer your post here but yes I have went as far
>>>>>>>>> as python
>>>>>>>>> can go and it broke.  I don't like mentioning it because python
>>>>>>>>> is a great
>>>>>>>>> language for many things. but yes our rather large python project
>>>>>>>>> which is
>>>>>>>>> pretty much an accessible front end for Linux, word processor,
>>>>>>>>> web browser,
>>>>>>>>> media player, radio tuner, book reader, twitter application, rss
>>>>>>>>> reader,
>>>>>>>>> email, all wrote in python Just got to the point where python was
>>>>>>>>> slowing
>>>>>>>>> things down even know the major lifting was done with c++
>>>>>>>>> modules.  So while
>>>>>>>>> we could crank out more and more apps they got slower and
>>>>>>>>> slower.  So yes we
>>>>>>>>> took python where we thought it could go and it broke.  I already
>>>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>>>>> once where a block of code looked right but was not for example
>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>> like this
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> if expression :
>>>>>>>>>        do something
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>       do something
>>>>>>>>>       do something
>>>>>>>>>       do something
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now that looks right if you intended the whole 4 lines to be in
>>>>>>>>> the if
>>>>>>>>> statement but if you were blocking the three lines and they took
> the
>>>>>>>>> indentation which some editors do you might not notice you had it
>>>>>>>>> at the
>>>>>>>>> same level as a blind coder.  This happened actually to a sighted
>>>>>>>>> coder and
>>>>>>>>> the code was in for a long time and I mean years before it was
>>>>>>>>> finally
>>>>>>>>> found.  Luckily it was not that important a bit of code but it
>>>>>>>>> took a blind
>>>>>>>>> guy and some pain staking looking to find the problem.  Granted
>>>>>>>>> this don't
>>>>>>>>> happen a lot but it does happen more than it does in languages
>>>>>>>>> that use true
>>>>>>>>> blocks of code.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for the typing of the language don't get me started you don't
>>>>>>>>> know how
>>>>>>>>> many times I  and others have pushed stuff from the web into a
>>>>>>>>> sqlite3 data
>>>>>>>>> base and taken it out and got nothing like we expected because of
>>>>>>>>> unicode
>>>>>>>>> and Ascii.  I still like python for quick stuff but give me a
>>>>>>>>> typed language
>>>>>>>>> any day.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina
>>>>>>>>> Bahram
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:39 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have, as has Ken more than me, and both of us have experienced
> the
>>>>>>>>> complete misery that is the lack of proper typing in
>>>>>>>>> multiperson development teams.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Out of curiosity, have you? been in a multiple person development
>>>>>>>>> team, I
>>>>>>>>> mean, so that you can back up how well Python works?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>>> Sina
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> Littlefield,
>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:48 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have you coded in python frequently enough to be able to back up
> the
>>>>>>>>> statement that coding in Python dies after big projects? I've
>>>>>>>>> added to
>>>>>>>>> some python projects and you can still code just as fast.
>>>>>>>>> On 6/18/2011 6:45 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> One reason we chose Java for BrailleBlaster is SWT. It really
>>>>>>>>>> works as a
>>>>>>>>>> cross-platform GUI builder. Once you get into a complex project
> the
>>>>>>>>>> advantages of being able to develop something quickly in Python
>>>>>>>>>> are much
>>>>>>>>>> less.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 03:22:52PM +0300, black ares wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In fact it isn't a matter of preference.
>>>>>>>>>>> Best trained profesionals in this area choose the platform and
>>>>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>>>>> best tailored to the project needs.
>>>>>>>>>>> So If I have a project that I can do better and quick in python
>>>>>>>>>>> than I
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> choose that langgage.
>>>>>>>>>>> If options are better in java I will choose it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends very much on the project requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "David Tseng"<davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:15 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally find arguments about programming languages much
>>>>>>>>>>>> analogous
>>>>>>>>>>>> to those seen in politics.  Both sides have great points but
>>>>>>>>>>>> tend to
>>>>>>>>>>>> drive one another towards opposite extremes.  Some camps are
>>>>>>>>>>>> die hard
>>>>>>>>>>>> dynamic language practitioners while others stick to strongly
>>>>>>>>>>>> typed
>>>>>>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the
>>>>>>>>>>>> battle
>>>>>>>>>>>> historically.  Most of the industry writes in C-styled
>>>>>>>>>>>> languages like
>>>>>>>>>>>> C/C++, java, etc.  Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Python,
>>>>>>>>>>>> as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to
>>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> code, is still largely a wrapper on C.  For those who want
>>>>>>>>>>>> absolute
>>>>>>>>>>>> performance, it's considered still an extra level of
indirection
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's not worth the productivity gain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I love python and its free-form style and the amount of
>>>>>>>>>>>> progress you
>>>>>>>>>>>> can make using it.  Python excels at the rinse and repeat
>>>>>>>>>>>> (compile,
>>>>>>>>>>>> run, fix) style of coding.  The few seconds you need to compile
> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in
>>>>>>>>>>>> python.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but can
>>>>>>>>>>>> independently mix in functional aspects if you wish.  You can
>>>>>>>>>>>> just as
>>>>>>>>>>>> easily go OO if you want as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>      wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> situations. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would probably give up if the only option were php, since I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough, but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's ease of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> readability, plus you can create executables with it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is difficult in java. Some people don't like that python is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> loosely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> typed, but I prefer saying:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> name=raw_input("Enter your name: ")
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to, if memory serves:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> name=new String();
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in=new InputReader();
>>>>>>>>>>>>> name=in.readLine();
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or something along those lines.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used both. I really like python because it comes on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most *nix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
>>>>>>>>> versatility.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me. That and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they seem to have some serious naming convention issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Python.
>>>>>>>>> Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx makes a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot more
>>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it is just as powerful, if not more. A command-line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> build system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like ant can take most of the hassle out of working with
Java
>>>>>>>>> classes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eclipse
>>>>>>>>> SWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Apache Ant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my blog:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>> my website:
>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>> my blog:
>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>>>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>>>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________
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