RE: Java versus Python

  • From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:27:23 -0400

One correction, function, not operator, but yes, that's exactly what I said, 
but I'm letting him enjoy his rant time.

Take care,
Sina


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:38 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Java versus Python

Not you go back far enough he said it don't support operator overloading
with out doing a switch or if statement .  

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Q
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:13 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python


Ugh, ugh ugh this is the last time, but I'll play.
First, an implementation of multimethods/multiple dispatch as you 
ignorantly continue to insist Python doesn't support this feature.
http://alexgaynor.net/2010/jun/26/multimethods-python/
Then, a demonstration of idiomatic python dealing with dispatching based 
on argument:

def act_on_argument(arg):
  actions = {
   "condition": func_to_call,
   "other_condition": other_func_to_call,
  42: yet_something_else,
  }
  if arg in actions:
   actions[arg]()
  else:
   raise ValueError('unsure what to do with %r' % arg)

for more details, see: 
http://stevemorin.blogspot.com/2005/11/python-switch-case-statement.html

And finally, a set of articles that I hope will finally bring this 
thread to a close.
First:
Python is not Java:
http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/python-is-not-java.html
Followed by:
Java is not Python, either:
http://dirtsimple.org/2004/12/java-is-not-python-either.html

Note that there's some discussion on there about Interfaces which has 
been rendered dated with the introduction of abstract base classes to 
the stdlib.

Please, please, please. Before writing your next message trying to point 
out what you consider to be an awful, horrible misfeature/simply not 
included in Python or whatever, do a little bit of Googling first? 
You'll save all of us a lot of time. In most cases you'll find that 
Python either already has a superior method for accomplishing what 
you're wanting to do, or, surprise! you can create one, because you are 
not limited to those capabilities which the language designers felt 
would be sufficient.
In all of this FUD about what Python can and can't do, not once did I 
hear a single word about more advanced and useful concepts, such as 
metaprogramming, which Python accomplishes via the use of decorators and 
metaclasses. Hell, unless I'm much mistaken, the Java language doesn't 
even support closures, meaning you're doomed to violating the don't 
repeat yourself principle in the most awful of ways.

Oh, and don't even get me started on your silly arbitrary rules like one 
class per file and no top-level functions.
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html

And one final note. As you probably noticed, I'm in the habit of 
supplying sources when I make claims. I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd 
do similar so I know that you're not just spewing bullshit?
      Thanks much,
      Q




On 6/20/2011 10:58 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
> Can you show an example of that please?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:45 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
> Your right Sina and wrong it really is not that messy specially if you use
a
> dictionary to call other functions but your right it is not function
> overloading but it does allow the called function to look like its
> overloaded and you only have to write the conditional's once so it's not
> that big of deal.
>
> Ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Bahram
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 3:09 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
> Uhm, no, you don't get function overloading at all, what-so-ever, in any
way
> shape or form.
>
> You get a holy mess because, exactly as he pointed out, you then have to
> have if statements inside of your method to figure out
> whether the value is the default value or not.
>
> Sorry, but this isn't overloading at all. It's simply default parameters.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:53 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
>
> No not dictionaries named  variables.  For example
>
> Def myfunc (stringArg="my string",intArg=1):
>    Print "%d %s" % (intArg,StringArg)
>
> Then you can do
>
> myFunc(stringArg="blah")
> myFunc(intArg=5)
> myfunc("blah",9)
>
> So you get kind of a function overloading
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:25 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
> Hi Ken,
> Are you talking about dictionaries or something else? I tried to google
this
> and I'm unsure if I'm reading the right stuff.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:27 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
> This is not true with python and named variables.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of black ares
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:21 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>
> Another problem I've meet with weak typing is polymorphism.
> If I want a behavior for a int value and other behavior for a string
value,
> I can not write same method with diferent arguments and different
behaviors.
> I am left only with the optionto write two different methods and to do
ugly
> if else statements.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 2:51 PM
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
>
>> There are two issues, just so we don't' conflate them.
>>
>> One is the issue of the grammar in question, and the second is the parser
>> for this grammar.
>>
>> So, the grammar for java uses left/right brace for block level scoping,
>> and the grammar for python uses indention level.
>>
>> Short humorous aside, everyone says indentation instead of indention, but
>> isn't indentation what you actually do to someone's head
>> in a fight, not to your code? Sorry, I love grammars, regardless of
>> context, *smile*, pun intended.
>>
>> Ok, so if one were to simply say that missing a space is like forgetting
a
>> brace, then, everything else being equal, it would be a
>> similar error; however, it isn't exactly the same thing. Spacing for
>> indention purposes happens on a line by line basis, as opposed
>> to the one time operation that is putting, or not putting, an
>> opening/closing brace.
>>
>> Also, forgetting a closing brace leaves a block of code open, and
>> forgetting a space instead closes a block.
>>
>> Ok, so now if we have some code, if I forget a closing brace, that's not
>> fun, but it's at least pretty easy to detect because
>> chances are that I'll open a method declaration or do something else that
>> doesn't happen inside of a block.
>>
>> If I forget a space, i simply close the block, so a bug can stay there
>> forever, because all that's happened is that I've simply
>> closed it one line too soon, or maybe a few lines too soon ... so that
>> code still runs, but maybe just not on the conditional I
>> want, or maybe it overrides a value.
>>
>> In other words, I'm putting forth that forgetting a closing brace is
>> actually more destructive than forgetting a space, but because
>> of this, the parser quickly ends up finding something that is an illegal
>> syntax error or just something at the semantic level that
>> doesn't make sense, and so there's a much higher chance of you finding
out
>> about it before you ever come to run your program even
>> once.
>>
>> That, I hope, addresses the issue of grammars.
>>
>> Now, moving onto parsers.
>>
>> The parser for Python, I feel, and this is subjective, doesn't give as
>> good feedback to the programmer as the java one does. The
>> reason for this really isn't the python guys' fault, at least not always,
>> and that's because of a lack of typing. Because of this,
>> sometimes error messages are perceived as vague and not useful.
>>
>> In java, alternatively, the compiler knows exactly what its expecting,
>> what would even make the code syntactically correct, and so
>> not only can it give you feedback along the lines of an argument being of
>> a wrong type, but tell you what it was thinking should go
>> there instead.
>>
>> Anyways, just some thoughts.
>>
>>
>> Take care,
>> Sina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:25 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>
>> Hi,
>> What would Java have done in a case like this? According to me, this
would
>> be a logic error whether or not it had anything to do
>> with indentation. I would think that it would be very easy to miss a
right
>> brace at the end of a code block. This would especially
>> be true since Java allows you to have a single statement without using a
>> right brace. It could be that I am missing something here
>> in my thinking.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 12:22 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>
>> This is true while I won't get into the what language is better since I
>> write in too many in my job to even want to have an opinion people need
to
>> realize that miss placed spaces are nothing like context problems in
other
>> languages.  If you miss place a block of spaced lines you don't just
cause
>> an error in the code.  In fact the code might run along happily with no
>> errors but the code won't do what you want.  This is one of the down
falls
>> of python.  There was actually a bug in the Icon and Braille+ that has
>> been
>> out for years that we only just recently found because of this very fact.
>> One of the sighted guys that works on the project even missed it because
>> the
>> block of 10 lines of code just looked like it was supposed to be out
there
>> on its own.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. Boyer
>> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:38 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>
>> The mandatory indentation in Python means that a single misplaced
>> whitespace
>> can entirely destroy a program. This is not very robust. C programmers
>> usually make sure their code is nicely indented by using a utility like
>> the
>> Gnu indent. I'm still looking for something similar for Java. Manual
>> indentation is too error-prone.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 08:32:55PM -0600, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>>> Java uses it's indentation much like braces are used. It's not where
>>> things have to be in specific columns, but indentation sort of solves
>>> a couple problems.
>>> 1) It means that all blocks of code are denoted by a deeper
>>> indentation level than the block that branched it.
>>> 2) It also means that people usually stick to a nice style. I've seen
>>> a lot of different code, for example:
>>> while (bla)
>>> do_something();
>>> while (bla) {
>>> do_something
>>> }
>>> while (bla)
>>> {
>>> do_something();
>>> }
>>>
>>> Indentation can be a bit hard to get used to, but I personally like it
>>> quite a lot.
>>> On 6/17/2011 8:30 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>> The thing I dislike about Python is mandatory indentation. This seems
>>>> to me a throwback to the old days of assembly language and Cobol,
>>>> where things had to be in certain columns. I like the free-form
>>>> syntax of Java and C.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 07:15:55PM -0700, David Tseng wrote:
>>>>> I personally find arguments about programming languages much
>>>>> analogous to those seen in politics.  Both sides have great points
>>>>> but tend to drive one another towards opposite extremes.  Some camps
>>>>> are die hard dynamic language practitioners while others stick to
>>>>> strongly typed code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the battle
>>>>> historically.  Most of the industry writes in C-styled languages
>>>>> like C/C++, java, etc.  Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.
>>>>> Python, as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to
>>>>> actually code, is still largely a wrapper on C.  For those who want
>>>>> absolute performance, it's considered still an extra level of
>>>>> indirection that's not worth the productivity gain.
>>>>>
>>>>> I love python and its free-form style and the amount of progress you
>>>>> can make using it.  Python excels at the rinse and repeat (compile,
>>>>> run, fix) style of coding.  The few seconds you need to compile a
>>>>> C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in python.
>>>>> You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java, but
>>>>> can independently mix in functional aspects if you wish.  You can
>>>>> just as easily go OO if you want as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>>>> Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most situations.
>>>>>> I would probably give up if the only option were php, since I
>>>>>> really hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy
>>>>>> enough, but I agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's
>>>>>> ease of use and readability, plus you can create executables with
>>>>>> it, something that is difficult in java. Some people don't like
>>>>>> that python is loosely typed, but I prefer saying:
>>>>>> name=raw_input("Enter your name: ") to, if memory serves:
>>>>>> name=new String();
>>>>>> in=new InputReader();
>>>>>> name=in.readLine();
>>>>>> or something along those lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>>>>> I've used both. I really like python because it comes on most *nix
>>>>>>> systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
>> versatility.
>>>>>>> Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to me. That
>>>>>>> and they seem to have some serious naming convention issues.
>>>>>>> Sometimes things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes
>> more sense.
>>>>>>> On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>> There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about
>>>>>>>> Python. Why is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx
>>>>>>>> makes a lot more sense and it is just as powerful, if not more. A
>>>>>>>> command-line build system like ant can take most of the hassle out
>>>>>>>> of
>> working with Java classes.
>>>>>>>> personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6,
>>>>>>>> Eclipse SWT and Apache Ant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>> my website:
>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>> my blog:
>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>>>>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>>>>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap __________ View
>>>>>> the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> my website:
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> my blog:
>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> --
>> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc.
>> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
>> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>> Developing software for people with disabilities
>>
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