Re: Java versus Python

  • From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:08:57 -0500

which is true -- I never learned it myself, but it has indeed lasted through 
decades of negative publicity and prejudice on the part of computer 
scientists.  I remember way back in the 80s in school how profs thought it 
was a shame that cobol was even taught, and serious students were steered 
away from it... All I can say is, there must have been a lot of nonserious 
students out there taking the class, and they all got jobs working on legacy 
cobol code that lasts forever.
*snicker*
--le
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: Java versus Python


Hi,
Cobol never dies. :)

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 11:44 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python

yes, I can see it now, COBOL++, forcing OO support into COBOL... ugh!!!
*smile*
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:25 AM
Subject: RE: Java versus Python


Hi,
You know, I think we should just all go back to Cobol and forget this
discussion.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
Coale
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 2:35 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python

You may not be against Java, but I sure am! (just thought I'd throw that
out there for the record)

On 6/19/2011 11:03 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
> Thanks. I'm not -against- Java, I was just trying to throw some valid
> reasons into the conversation. Most of the points against python were
> invalid and not true.
> On 6/19/2011 11:58 AM, black ares wrote:
>> my messages were written before your messages where you found these
>> asserts.
>> Until my messages you showed a very python oriented atitude and
>> against java and other like this for no matter what args.
>> But after I have seen your messages and I have understood that you
>> can admit some times that python is not good for all.
>> Very well you simply have proven that you are more than a begginer in
>> this area.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler"
>> <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 5:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>
>>
>>> >The problem here is not that Ken and his team had or had not a good
>>> planing session, but that Tilor aserts some things wich are not so
>>> real.
>>> What,
>>> 1) That python shouldn't be used as the core of a system on a box
>>> like the Icon with the specs it has.
>>> 2) That python may not be the choice for -everything-
>>> 3) That a -good- coder knows what language to use, and why?
>>> What is "not so real," about that?
>>> On 6/19/2011 1:59 AM, black ares wrote:
>>>> Sure, but this don't minimise the drawbacks of python.
>>>> And some things you discover after you've implemented part of the
>>>> real system, when you realy put to work that language.
>>>> The problem here is not that Ken and his team had or had not a good
>>>> planing session, but that Tilor aserts some things wich are not so
>>>> real.
>>>> I agree that in a good planing session you might see how bad python
>>>> works and choose another technology for a "performance critical"
>>>> software.
>>>> But sometimes the truth is hidden and you get excited because of
>>>> the enthusiasm of the comunity around a language and you decide to
>>>> give a try.
>>>> Hearing Tiller I now might decide to do the next fifa 2012 in
>>>> python because it is better than c++ or other language, I will get
>>>> some productivity increase and you know, who want not to deliver
>>>> earlier.
>>>> Lucky me that I've tried some "open source" "free" languages and I
>>>> decided that most of them are poorly implemented, targeted only to
>>>> simple tasks like showing infos on a little html webpage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Coale"
>>>> <ccoale427@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Please don't say you "broke" Python, as you did not. What you mean
>>>>> to say is that your development team broke your project. I'm
>>>>> unsure if you are referring to the execution speed of Python or
>>>>> the development time it took you to create applications; if you
>>>>> are referring to the former, then I must say that you (and/or your
>>>>> development team) did poor project planning. Did you not know that
>>>>> Python tends to be an interpreted language? That's something to
>>>>> consider when you are developing a performance-critical application.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the indentation issue -- why was this not considered before
>>>>> the project started? Many people have no problems with the
>>>>> indentations, though, admittedly, some do. This should have been
>>>>> one of the things to consider during the planning stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/18/2011 2:42 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>> Sina I have told Tylor that I will not respond to anything he
>>>>>> posts so this
>>>>>> is pushing it to answer your post here but yes I have went as far
>>>>>> as python
>>>>>> can go and it broke.  I don't like mentioning it because python
>>>>>> is a great
>>>>>> language for many things. but yes our rather large python project
>>>>>> which is
>>>>>> pretty much an accessible front end for Linux, word processor,
>>>>>> web browser,
>>>>>> media player, radio tuner, book reader, twitter application, rss
>>>>>> reader,
>>>>>> email, all wrote in python Just got to the point where python was
>>>>>> slowing
>>>>>> things down even know the major lifting was done with c++
>>>>>> modules.  So while
>>>>>> we could crank out more and more apps they got slower and
>>>>>> slower.  So yes we
>>>>>> took python where we thought it could go and it broke.  I already
>>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>> once where a block of code looked right but was not for example
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> like this
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if expression :
>>>>>>     do something
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    do something
>>>>>>    do something
>>>>>>    do something
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now that looks right if you intended the whole 4 lines to be in
>>>>>> the if
>>>>>> statement but if you were blocking the three lines and they took the
>>>>>> indentation which some editors do you might not notice you had it
>>>>>> at the
>>>>>> same level as a blind coder.  This happened actually to a sighted
>>>>>> coder and
>>>>>> the code was in for a long time and I mean years before it was
>>>>>> finally
>>>>>> found.  Luckily it was not that important a bit of code but it
>>>>>> took a blind
>>>>>> guy and some pain staking looking to find the problem.  Granted
>>>>>> this don't
>>>>>> happen a lot but it does happen more than it does in languages
>>>>>> that use true
>>>>>> blocks of code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the typing of the language don't get me started you don't
>>>>>> know how
>>>>>> many times I  and others have pushed stuff from the web into a
>>>>>> sqlite3 data
>>>>>> base and taken it out and got nothing like we expected because of
>>>>>> unicode
>>>>>> and Ascii.  I still like python for quick stuff but give me a
>>>>>> typed language
>>>>>> any day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina
>>>>>> Bahram
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:39 PM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have, as has Ken more than me, and both of us have experienced the
>>>>>> complete misery that is the lack of proper typing in
>>>>>> multiperson development teams.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Out of curiosity, have you? been in a multiple person development
>>>>>> team, I
>>>>>> mean, so that you can back up how well Python works?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>> Sina
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Littlefield,
>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:48 AM
>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you coded in python frequently enough to be able to back up the
>>>>>> statement that coding in Python dies after big projects? I've
>>>>>> added to
>>>>>> some python projects and you can still code just as fast.
>>>>>> On 6/18/2011 6:45 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>> One reason we chose Java for BrailleBlaster is SWT. It really
>>>>>>> works as a
>>>>>>> cross-platform GUI builder. Once you get into a complex project the
>>>>>>> advantages of being able to develop something quickly in Python
>>>>>>> are much
>>>>>>> less.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 03:22:52PM +0300, black ares wrote:
>>>>>>>> In fact it isn't a matter of preference.
>>>>>>>> Best trained profesionals in this area choose the platform and
>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>> best tailored to the project needs.
>>>>>>>> So If I have a project that I can do better and quick in python
>>>>>>>> than I
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> choose that langgage.
>>>>>>>> If options are better in java I will choose it.
>>>>>>>> Depends very much on the project requirements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "David Tseng"<davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:15 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I personally find arguments about programming languages much
>>>>>>>>> analogous
>>>>>>>>> to those seen in politics.  Both sides have great points but
>>>>>>>>> tend to
>>>>>>>>> drive one another towards opposite extremes.  Some camps are
>>>>>>>>> die hard
>>>>>>>>> dynamic language practitioners while others stick to strongly
>>>>>>>>> typed
>>>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the
>>>>>>>>> battle
>>>>>>>>> historically.  Most of the industry writes in C-styled
>>>>>>>>> languages like
>>>>>>>>> C/C++, java, etc.  Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.
>>>>>>>>> Python,
>>>>>>>>> as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to
>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>> code, is still largely a wrapper on C.  For those who want
>>>>>>>>> absolute
>>>>>>>>> performance, it's considered still an extra level of indirection
>>>>>>>>> that's not worth the productivity gain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I love python and its free-form style and the amount of
>>>>>>>>> progress you
>>>>>>>>> can make using it.  Python excels at the rinse and repeat
>>>>>>>>> (compile,
>>>>>>>>> run, fix) style of coding.  The few seconds you need to compile a
>>>>>>>>> C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in
>>>>>>>>> python.
>>>>>>>>> You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java,
>>>>>>>>> but can
>>>>>>>>> independently mix in functional aspects if you wish.  You can
>>>>>>>>> just as
>>>>>>>>> easily go OO if you want as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most
>>>>>>>>>> situations. I
>>>>>>>>>> would probably give up if the only option were php, since I
>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>> hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy
>>>>>>>>>> enough, but I
>>>>>>>>>> agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's ease of
>>>>>>>>>> use and
>>>>>>>>>> readability, plus you can create executables with it,
>>>>>>>>>> something that
>>>>>>>>>> is difficult in java. Some people don't like that python is
>>>>>>>>>> loosely
>>>>>>>>>> typed, but I prefer saying:
>>>>>>>>>> name=raw_input("Enter your name: ")
>>>>>>>>>> to, if memory serves:
>>>>>>>>>> name=new String();
>>>>>>>>>> in=new InputReader();
>>>>>>>>>> name=in.readLine();
>>>>>>>>>> or something along those lines.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I've used both. I really like python because it comes on
>>>>>>>>>>> most *nix
>>>>>>>>>>> systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
>>>>>> versatility.
>>>>>>>>>>> Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to
>>>>>>>>>>> me. That and
>>>>>>>>>>> they seem to have some serious naming convention issues.
>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>> things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes
>>>>>>>>>>> more sense.
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about
>>>>>>>>>>>> Python.
>>>>>> Why
>>>>>>>>>>>> is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx makes a
>>>>>>>>>>>> lot more
>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>>>>> and it is just as powerful, if not more. A command-line
>>>>>>>>>>>> build system
>>>>>>>>>>>> like ant can take most of the hassle out of working with Java
>>>>>> classes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Eclipse
>>>>>> SWT
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Apache Ant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>>>>>> my website:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>>>>>>> my blog:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>>>>>>>>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>>>>>>>>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>>>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> my website:
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> my blog:
>>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>> skype: st8amnd127
>>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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>>
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>>
>
>

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