RE: Java versus Python

  • From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:24:51 -0400

Hi Ken,
Are you talking about dictionaries or something else? I tried to google this 
and I'm unsure if I'm reading the right stuff.

Thanks.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:27 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Java versus Python

This is not true with python and named variables.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of black ares
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:21 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python

Another problem I've meet with weak typing is polymorphism.
If I want a behavior for a int value and other behavior for a string value,
I can not write same method with diferent arguments and different behaviors.
I am left only with the optionto write two different methods and to do ugly 
if else statements.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: Java versus Python


> There are two issues, just so we don't' conflate them.
>
> One is the issue of the grammar in question, and the second is the parser 
> for this grammar.
>
> So, the grammar for java uses left/right brace for block level scoping, 
> and the grammar for python uses indention level.
>
> Short humorous aside, everyone says indentation instead of indention, but 
> isn't indentation what you actually do to someone's head
> in a fight, not to your code? Sorry, I love grammars, regardless of 
> context, *smile*, pun intended.
>
> Ok, so if one were to simply say that missing a space is like forgetting a

> brace, then, everything else being equal, it would be a
> similar error; however, it isn't exactly the same thing. Spacing for 
> indention purposes happens on a line by line basis, as opposed
> to the one time operation that is putting, or not putting, an 
> opening/closing brace.
>
> Also, forgetting a closing brace leaves a block of code open, and 
> forgetting a space instead closes a block.
>
> Ok, so now if we have some code, if I forget a closing brace, that's not 
> fun, but it's at least pretty easy to detect because
> chances are that I'll open a method declaration or do something else that 
> doesn't happen inside of a block.
>
> If I forget a space, i simply close the block, so a bug can stay there 
> forever, because all that's happened is that I've simply
> closed it one line too soon, or maybe a few lines too soon ... so that 
> code still runs, but maybe just not on the conditional I
> want, or maybe it overrides a value.
>
> In other words, I'm putting forth that forgetting a closing brace is 
> actually more destructive than forgetting a space, but because
> of this, the parser quickly ends up finding something that is an illegal 
> syntax error or just something at the semantic level that
> doesn't make sense, and so there's a much higher chance of you finding out

> about it before you ever come to run your program even
> once.
>
> That, I hope, addresses the issue of grammars.
>
> Now, moving onto parsers.
>
> The parser for Python, I feel, and this is subjective, doesn't give as 
> good feedback to the programmer as the java one does. The
> reason for this really isn't the python guys' fault, at least not always, 
> and that's because of a lack of typing. Because of this,
> sometimes error messages are perceived as vague and not useful.
>
> In java, alternatively, the compiler knows exactly what its expecting, 
> what would even make the code syntactically correct, and so
> not only can it give you feedback along the lines of an argument being of 
> a wrong type, but tell you what it was thinking should go
> there instead.
>
> Anyways, just some thoughts.
>
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:25 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
> Hi,
> What would Java have done in a case like this? According to me, this would

> be a logic error whether or not it had anything to do
> with indentation. I would think that it would be very easy to miss a right

> brace at the end of a code block. This would especially
> be true since Java allows you to have a single statement without using a 
> right brace. It could be that I am missing something here
> in my thinking.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 12:22 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Java versus Python
>
> This is true while I won't get into the what language is better since I
> write in too many in my job to even want to have an opinion people need to
> realize that miss placed spaces are nothing like context problems in other
> languages.  If you miss place a block of spaced lines you don't just cause
> an error in the code.  In fact the code might run along happily with no
> errors but the code won't do what you want.  This is one of the down falls
> of python.  There was actually a bug in the Icon and Braille+ that has 
> been
> out for years that we only just recently found because of this very fact.
> One of the sighted guys that works on the project even missed it because 
> the
> block of 10 lines of code just looked like it was supposed to be out there
> on its own.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J. Boyer
> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:38 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Java versus Python
>
> The mandatory indentation in Python means that a single misplaced 
> whitespace
> can entirely destroy a program. This is not very robust. C programmers
> usually make sure their code is nicely indented by using a utility like 
> the
> Gnu indent. I'm still looking for something similar for Java. Manual
> indentation is too error-prone.
>
> John
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 08:32:55PM -0600, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>> Java uses it's indentation much like braces are used. It's not where
>> things have to be in specific columns, but indentation sort of solves
>> a couple problems.
>> 1) It means that all blocks of code are denoted by a deeper
>> indentation level than the block that branched it.
>> 2) It also means that people usually stick to a nice style. I've seen
>> a lot of different code, for example:
>> while (bla)
>> do_something();
>> while (bla) {
>> do_something
>> }
>> while (bla)
>> {
>> do_something();
>> }
>>
>> Indentation can be a bit hard to get used to, but I personally like it
>> quite a lot.
>> On 6/17/2011 8:30 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>> >The thing I dislike about Python is mandatory indentation. This seems
>> >to me a throwback to the old days of assembly language and Cobol,
>> >where things had to be in certain columns. I like the free-form
>> >syntax of Java and C.
>> >
>> >John
>> >
>> >On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 07:15:55PM -0700, David Tseng wrote:
>> >>I personally find arguments about programming languages much
>> >>analogous to those seen in politics.  Both sides have great points
>> >>but tend to drive one another towards opposite extremes.  Some camps
>> >>are die hard dynamic language practitioners while others stick to
>> >>strongly typed code.
>> >>
>> >>I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the battle
>> >>historically.  Most of the industry writes in C-styled languages
>> >>like C/C++, java, etc.  Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.
>> >>Python, as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to
>> >>actually code, is still largely a wrapper on C.  For those who want
>> >>absolute performance, it's considered still an extra level of
>> >>indirection that's not worth the productivity gain.
>> >>
>> >>I love python and its free-form style and the amount of progress you
>> >>can make using it.  Python excels at the rinse and repeat (compile,
>> >>run, fix) style of coding.  The few seconds you need to compile a
>> >>C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in python.
>> >>You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java, but
>> >>can independently mix in functional aspects if you wish.  You can
>> >>just as easily go OO if you want as well.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>> >>>Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most situations.
>> >>>I would probably give up if the only option were php, since I
>> >>>really hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy
>> >>>enough, but I agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's
>> >>>ease of use and readability, plus you can create executables with
>> >>>it, something that is difficult in java. Some people don't like
>> >>>that python is loosely typed, but I prefer saying:
>> >>>name=raw_input("Enter your name: ") to, if memory serves:
>> >>>name=new String();
>> >>>in=new InputReader();
>> >>>name=in.readLine();
>> >>>or something along those lines.
>> >>>
>> >>>On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>> >>>>I've used both. I really like python because it comes on most *nix
>> >>>>systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
> versatility.
>> >>>>Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to me. That
>> >>>>and they seem to have some serious naming convention issues.
>> >>>>Sometimes things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes
> more sense.
>> >>>>On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>> >>>>>There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about
>> >>>>>Python. Why is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx
>> >>>>>makes a lot more sense and it is just as powerful, if not more. A
>> >>>>>command-line build system like ant can take most of the hassle out 
>> >>>>>of
> working with Java classes.
>> >>>>>personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6,
>> >>>>>Eclipse SWT and Apache Ant.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>John
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>--
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Take care,
>> >>>>Ty
>> >>>>my website:
>> >>>>http://tds-solutions.net
>> >>>>my blog:
>> >>>>http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>> >>>>skype: st8amnd127
>> >>>>My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>> >>>>
>> >>>>__________
>> >>>>View the list's information and change your settings at
>> >>>>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>--
>> >>>Have a great day,
>> >>>Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>> >>>mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap __________ View
>> >>>the list's information and change your settings at
>> >>>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>__________
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> my website:
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> my blog:
>> http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>> skype: st8amnd127
>> My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
> --
> John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc.
> http://www.abilitiessoft.com
> Madison, Wisconsin USA
> Developing software for people with disabilities
>
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