Well the problem was the 10 lines of code that are the real life example
made since either in or out of the code in a code walk through in fact it
worked for 90 % of the cases. But if this was done in another language
the
bug would have been found and caught much sooner.
ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Tseng
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:42 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python
Striving for consistency within a specific codebase or organization
feels "right" to me. If everyone agrees to stick with braces except
for single lined if statements, then it becomes accepted practice
rather than a debate of individual preference.
Given the above and a good software engineering culture, even the
python issues pointed out can rarely creep into the codebase. It's a
wonder how useful code reviews, in-line code commenting ttools, static
analysis, unit/integration/continuous testing, commit queues, etc all
do for stomping out most of the problems pointed out in this thread
regardless of language.
Of course, if you're just one hacker doing your own thing, it really
doesn't matter as long as you understand your own codebase fully. It
does from what I've seen though cause an intensive sense of
protectiveness and fondness for a specific language or platform.
There's really no better way to learn imo to try writing a handfull of
projects and to pick a language you've never used. The language,
after all's just an expression of core CS concepts and a means to an
end.
On 6/20/11, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Oh I will also note if you do use the no braces method again you know
that
the second line is not part of the if in python it can be if the
indentation
is wrong. So even if you didn't surround all your singles with braces
like
I do then you would still know that block did not belong to the if.
ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:25 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Java versus Python
Hi,
What would Java have done in a case like this? According to me, this
would
be a logic error whether or not it had anything to do with indentation.
I
would think that it would be very easy to miss a right brace at the end
of
a
code block. This would especially be true since Java allows you to have
a
single statement without using a right brace. It could be that I am
missing
something here in my thinking.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 12:22 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Java versus Python
This is true while I won't get into the what language is better since I
write in too many in my job to even want to have an opinion people need
to
realize that miss placed spaces are nothing like context problems in
other
languages. If you miss place a block of spaced lines you don't just
cause
an error in the code. In fact the code might run along happily with no
errors but the code won't do what you want. This is one of the down
falls
of python. There was actually a bug in the Icon and Braille+ that has
been
out for years that we only just recently found because of this very
fact.
One of the sighted guys that works on the project even missed it because
the
block of 10 lines of code just looked like it was supposed to be out
there
on its own.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J.
Boyer
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:38 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Java versus Python
The mandatory indentation in Python means that a single misplaced
whitespace
can entirely destroy a program. This is not very robust. C programmers
usually make sure their code is nicely indented by using a utility like
the
Gnu indent. I'm still looking for something similar for Java. Manual
indentation is too error-prone.
John
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 08:32:55PM -0600, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
Java uses it's indentation much like braces are used. It's not where
things have to be in specific columns, but indentation sort of solves
a couple problems.
1) It means that all blocks of code are denoted by a deeper
indentation level than the block that branched it.
2) It also means that people usually stick to a nice style. I've seen
a lot of different code, for example:
while (bla)
do_something();
while (bla) {
do_something
}
while (bla)
{
do_something();
}
Indentation can be a bit hard to get used to, but I personally like it
quite a lot.
On 6/17/2011 8:30 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>The thing I dislike about Python is mandatory indentation. This seems
>to me a throwback to the old days of assembly language and Cobol,
>where things had to be in certain columns. I like the free-form
>syntax of Java and C.
>
>John
>
>On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 07:15:55PM -0700, David Tseng wrote:
>>I personally find arguments about programming languages much
>>analogous to those seen in politics. Both sides have great points
>>but tend to drive one another towards opposite extremes. Some camps
>>are die hard dynamic language practitioners while others stick to
>>strongly typed code.
>>
>>I will say that strongly typed languages have kind of won the battle
>>historically. Most of the industry writes in C-styled languages
>>like C/C++, java, etc. Lisp, still beloved by many, kind of lost.
>>Python, as many have shown, works wonderfully and frees up coders to
>>actually code, is still largely a wrapper on C. For those who want
>>absolute performance, it's considered still an extra level of
>>indirection that's not worth the productivity gain.
>>
>>I love python and its free-form style and the amount of progress you
>>can make using it. Python excels at the rinse and repeat (compile,
>>run, fix) style of coding. The few seconds you need to compile a
>>C-styled language and run, you're already fixing the bug in python.
>>You're not babied into writing object-oriented code ala java, but
>>can independently mix in functional aspects if you wish. You can
>>just as easily go OO if you want as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>On 6/17/11, Alex Hall<mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>Programming is certainly a matter of preference in most situations.
>>>I would probably give up if the only option were php, since I
>>>really hate that language (no offense to anyone). Java is easy
>>>enough, but I agree that it feels bulky at times. I like Python's
>>>ease of use and readability, plus you can create executables with
>>>it, something that is difficult in java. Some people don't like
>>>that python is loosely typed, but I prefer saying:
>>>name=raw_input("Enter your name: ") to, if memory serves:
>>>name=new String();
>>>in=new InputReader();
>>>name=in.readLine();
>>>or something along those lines.
>>>
>>>On 6/17/11, Littlefield, Tyler<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>I've used both. I really like python because it comes on most *nix
>>>>systems. I also like Python because of it's flexability and
versatility.
>>>>Java is nice enough, but it feels big bulky and clunky to me. That
>>>>and they seem to have some serious naming convention issues.
>>>>Sometimes things are capitalized, sometimes they're not--.net makes
more sense.
>>>>On 6/17/2011 6:49 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
>>>>>There has been a lot of discussion on the list lately about
>>>>>Python. Why is that?Personally i much prefer Java. Its syntx
>>>>>makes a lot more sense and it is just as powerful, if not more. A
>>>>>command-line build system like ant can take most of the hassle out
of
working with Java classes.
>>>>>personally, I prefer this to Eclipse.
>>>>>
>>>>>BrailleBlaster is written in Java. I am using openjdk-1.6,
>>>>>Eclipse SWT and Apache Ant.
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>>Take care,
>>>>Ty
>>>>my website:
>>>>http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>my blog:
>>>>http://tds-solutions.net/blog
>>>>skype: st8amnd127
>>>>My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
>>>>
>>>>__________
>>>>View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Have a great day,
>>>Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap __________ View
>>>the list's information and change your settings at
>>>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>>
>>__________
>>View the list's information and change your settings at
>>//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
--
Take care,
Ty
my website:
http://tds-solutions.net
my blog:
http://tds-solutions.net/blog
skype: st8amnd127
My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
--
John J. Boyer; President, Chief Software Developer Abilitiessoft, Inc.
http://www.abilitiessoft.com
Madison, Wisconsin USA
Developing software for people with disabilities
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