RE: JFW keymap like orca keymap?
- From: "Chris Hofstader" <chris.hofstader@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:13:56 -0400
At FS, we thought about having scripting contests and various prizes in
various categories. The one problem with a flood of scripts officially
sanctioned by the vendor is that they need to provide support for such and
technical support calls and hours can get very expensive very quickly.
Really shit hot JAWS scripters were always invited to join our private beta
team who all get JAWS for free anyway and I think WE probably has a similar
policy with their beta testers as well.
What I really like about WE "scripting" is that it is more like actual
programming than the JAWS scripting model and the programmer has profoundly
more things available than with JAWS. Unfortunately, though, I don't know
how many people will take the time to put extra configurations into a
distant #2 product. If GW had done this about five years ago, much could
have been quite different.
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 4:18 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: JFW keymap like orca keymap?
Oh, I think that giving a free Window Eyes licence to those who contribute
with scripts is a great idea!
The scripts are a kind of open source anyway, and making this promotion, GW
Micro could reach Freedom Scientific faster, with no big costs.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: JFW keymap like orca keymap?
>
>
> I agree with everything Teddy has said here. There are options for people
> who want to use Access in Linux but they are options that take a lot of
> work
> for example you can use MYSQL and php. That of course is not the quick
> and
> easy solution that Access is.
>
> Linux is a solution about at the same speed as Mac and voice over. Sure
> the
> standard applications are accessible but it will be a long time before it
> can replace all that has been put into windows.
>
> I am sorry to say but the same goes for Window-eyes. Unless Window-eyes
> either pays people who create scripts or they give things like if you
> create
> scripts for 10 applications you get a free license of Window-eyes or if
> you
> create an application worth of scripts a year you have a free Window-eyes.
> It will be a long time before Window-eyes catches up with the
> functionality
> of Jaws. I know a lot of people will argue with me but just look at the
> work that ahs been put into Visual studio to make it what it is read the
> scripts to Access that made it to the point its at.
>
> Its nice to have the power of Linux and the freedom to write your own
> tools
> but how many of us have the time to sit down and do it? In the same vein
> how many of us have the time to write the scripts to Visual studio. I
> started the push for the Visual studio scripts after pulling together Will
> and Travis's work and then Jamal jumped on it and ran with it he had the
> time to do it. If it wasn't for us 4 though nothing would have happened
> now
> the question is. When Window-eyes comes in and has a scripting language
> how
> many of us has first the money to go off and buy a screen reader when jaws
> works for us and second how many of us have the time to sit down and re
> write a lot of the work that is already done in Jaws. Jaws has built up
> the
> scripts over the years just like Windows has built up application support
> for the desktop over the years. Linux is a multi user network server
> style
> platform and it will be a while before it has true Application level
> support
> even with things like Open Office.
>
> I hope that Linux jumps ahead now that they re getting a better OCR
> project
> group together but truth is I can't live with out the scanner and I don't
> have the time to help the OCR group grow the access to it so for now
> Windows
> is my only option. The same goes for Window-eyes I will be surprised if
> it
> suddenly works in all the applications jaws already supports. I have
> taught
> Window-eyes so I am not a Jaws bigot I like Jaws, Window-eyes, and System
> access but until both Window-eyes and System access grows up to the point
> it
> can support some of the weird software I use I don't have the time for
> them.
> In the same way I only have time to play with Linux until the access to
> and
> the amount of desktop applications grows.
>
> Shrug I will jump down off my soap box but know this every time new Screen
> reader demo's come out I run them because who knows maybe something will
> happen to finally tip the balance. When that happens FS should watch out
> because the rats will jump ship as the Titanic rapidly sinks. Microsoft
> knows this to if Linux ever tips the balance and it truly becomes a
> desktop
> alternative the windows OS is finished. Hmm Microsoft doesn't look to
> worried and with the desktop applications that are currently available Id
> don't see that they should be. Linux is still an OS for geeks and
> Window-eyes is still a screen reader for people who have less demanding
> uses
> than geeky jaws users.
>
> Ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
> Rasnita
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 7:20 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: JFW keymap like orca keymap?
>
> Well, the users don't need to use only the operating system tools, and a
> spreadsheet, a word processor and a presentation program.
>
> There are no good OCR programs for Linux, no professional Stock Exchange
> Technical Analysis program, no AutoCad for Linux, much fewer games, no
> accessible music creattion/editing programs, and these are just a few
> program types I know, but other users might have other needs.
>
> If Linux is free, and if it would be really the best OS, I wouldn't see
> any
> reason the users prefer to pay for using Windows, and also pay for using
> Windows applications.
>
> Maybe there are some reasons...
>
> Some lists in Open Office don't look exactly like those created in MS
> Office, the Open Office spreadsheet doesn't have the same scripting
> support
> like MS Excel in Jaws, sometimes (very rarely, true) I also need to use MS
> Access, Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Dalton" <d.dalton@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 2:45 PM
> Subject: Re: JFW keymap like orca keymap?
>
>
>> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, now I understand that you find that way easier because you are using
>>> Braille.
>>
>> Well yes I guess, but I'm not the faster reader around... And I do use
>> basic speech...
>> I guess I can scan lines quicker than speech though.
>>
>>> Well, I don't even know braille, and although it is very easy to learn,
>>> it is pretty hard to feel those raised dots, so I don't feel that I have
>>> good reasons for learning it.
>>
>> Well yes and no... You get use to it after a while.
>> If you can I would recommend learning it...
>> I tought myself computer braille in uk, us and then UEB and I was tought
>> Australian braille... (now replaced with ueb) I learnt the grade 2
>> stuff...
>>
>>> I made a mistake twice because I named lynx a screen reader, but I have
>>> used
>>
>> No worries.
>>
>>> lynx for the first time in 1995 or 1996.... I don't remember exactly.
>>> Now I use it but with Jaws, in a SecureCRT SSH console, and I don't like
>>> it
>>
>> Well that's using jaws... Not a native linux screenreader.
>>
>>> at all, because there are very many things I can't do with it, but
>>> unfortunately it is the only choice for using a browser in an SSH
>>> console.
>>
>> Well there is elinks, links2, links, lynx and w3m... (Just to name a few)
>> Oh and I believe you can some how set up x11 and then you could use
>> firefox, but dunno how jfw would handle that.
>>
>>>
>>> lynx or links is not a big difference, so for me they are both the same.
>>
>> Well I believe lynx is a lot more accessible...
>>
>>>
>>> It seems that you are not suggesting a certain screen reader or browser,
>>> but
>>
>> Well sure, use lynx and if you can brltty or speakup...
>> They are the main ones...
>>
>>> also suggest using another operating system.
>>
>> I would recommend linux over windows personally.
>>
>>>
>>> Well, I am using Linux, because I am creating programs that run under
>>> Linux in production, however, for using the computer as a desktop, Linux
>>> is much less developed than Windows.
>>> Linux is great in standards, and theoretical ways of doing things, but
>>> unfortunately at the final it is much easier to use Windows, because the
>>> file system can be accessed easier with Windows Explorer, there are far
>>> better
>>
>> Use gnome then... I haven't had a problem with the console and file
>> browsing though.
>> Actually I find it easier... I can list certain files for example or
>> delete all files with a certain extention.
>>
>>> screen readers for Windows than for Linux, the screen readers support
>>> for
>>
>> I think brltty is better than JAWs, but not sure about speakup.
>> And yes I know orca has a fair way to go, but it works almost as well as
>> jaws with most things accept for web...
>> It has one way better thing though.
>> It actually uses a scripting language which is not made up by the devs.
>> It uses python unlike jaws which invented their own.
>> I personally think that was quite stupid to invent their own language...
>> Not sure why they did, had to write documentation, compilers, etc...
>> And there may hve already been libs around if they did the scripting in
>> python...
>> I know python is open source though so that may have been a problem...
>>
>>> browsers is much better, even if you don't care about those extra
>>> features
>>
>> The windows browsers are better?
>> Well as I said with braille its fine, but if a sighted person used linux
>> they would have the same experience, they would just use firefox.
>> I hope to improve firefox accessibility with orca though.
>>
>>> offered by them.
>>> I also don't need nor like some of the features offered by the Windows
>>> screen readers, but they might be important for some users, and I can
>>> choose to turn them off if I don't like them.
>>
>> There is a lot of stuff in linux ones too...
>> For example, my braille display driver (brltty) supports almost every
>> displayed ever made, good documentation, cut and paste, alert tunes,
>> basic
>
>> speech, lots of different codes, lots of navigation features etc.
>>
>>>
>>> I can't choose to change very easy an OS, even it would have the best
>>> screen reading software, because most of the users and the business
>>> partners use Windows, and there will be compatibility issues for sure.
>>
>> Not really...
>> Linux can handle word and stuff, all I had problems with was ms access
>> and
>
>> ms power point (I think should work), but I just dropped the access
>> stuff...
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Dalton
>>
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/
>> <d.dalton@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
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