Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "Jacob Kruger" <jacobk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:51:37 +0200

Apparently a flash object can tell if the visitor has a screenreader, but, 
alternatively, my experimentation with embedding sound clips, and then handling 
everything with a form of DHTML, where one of their test/tutorial examples is 
blocking a mouse click on any link could make it quite easy to make a website 
look normal, but not be usable unless it was a screenreader user...<smile>

Stay well

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: qubit 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:37 PM
  Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?


  lolol -- i still want to write that web page that bars use by "light 
dependent" visitors... -- for example, putting up invisible text or black on 
black, and hiding everything from the mouse.  I could also make part of it self 
voicing but set the speech rate to a ridiculous speed that only a seasoned 
screen reader user could understand.
  I should put on my mean and sneaky hat and look at that if I ever have time.
  This list is taking my time today, but the discussion is interesting.
  --le




    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Jay Macarty 
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:23 PM
    Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?


    Just on the lighter side of this topic but something that does bring out a 
bit of a point; I was once assigned a fix to a GUI where the user said a 
certain button in the tool bar wasn't showing up. When I read the GUI screen, 
the button was there and I could tab to it and press spacebar to activate it. 
After some going back and forth, it turned out that the button was, in fact, 
actually there but it's visual property was just set to false. This was a java 
GUI so it was a little weird anyway but it was confusing for everybody for a 
time since I seemed to be able to read things on the screen that the users 
weren't seeing. <smile>

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: qubit 
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:55 PM
      Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?


      I think even if we get sighted assistance implementing a gui, or even 
punt off the whole interface to the sighted person to "perfect" the gui (if a 
gui is ever perfect...), it is still important to understand how the gui is 
going to operate so as to interface with it.  It also helps in communicating 
with other employees and customers.  But in my (admittedly sparse) experience 
doing guis directly, I always have to get sighted assistance to tell me what is 
a little bit off, or whether the colors are right, or whether it is appealing 
to use (very nebulous concept).  Sometimes, in the case of family members, the 
communication breaks down when something is wrong but they can't explain in 
their own words what is wrong about it.  For example, I was doing a webpage 
where I needed to print a simple tree of entries, rooted on the left.  I had to 
indent each entry to its proper indentation level.  Unfortunately, the entries 
were all coming out flush with the left margin -- however, even though I asked 
for a sighted family member to "eyeball" the screen, she couldn't explain to me 
what was wrong, only that all the data was there but it wasn't right.  (I know, 
there are ways to query the pixel coordinates with jaws, but that is awkward 
and I needed input for other visual attributes as well.)    What's more, I 
couldn't explain to her in a way she felt comfortable with, what I meant when I 
described the desired layout.  Eventually we ironed this out, but it took a 
ridiculous amount of frustration just to communicate, when the whole thing 
could have been resolved in a few minutes, implementation and all, if we 
understood each other.
      I agree that gui implementation code needs to be separate from other 
processing as much as possible.
      I know I am a bit out of date on current practices and technology, but I 
try to keep informed.  I hope what I say has value to someone.
      Happy hacking.
      --le





      ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Robert J Smith 
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:53 AM
        Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired 
Coders?



        Hi all -- I agree that it would be best if we as blind people could do 
nice gui stuff, but the general concensus here seems to be which I suspected 
all along, that at some point we would need sighted assistance in making the 
thing really look decent.  I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying do it knowing 
that you will probably need sighted help at some point to finish the thing. 

        Bob Smith

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              From:  <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
              To:  <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
              Date:  10/14/2010 09:37 AM  
              Subject:  RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually 
Impaired Coders? 


------------------------------------------------------------------------



        Hi Susie.

        UML:
        I use a tool called enterprise architect which is about 90% accessible
        with Hal.
        Generally I do all the detailing of classes, use cases, requirements and
        so on, one of the sighted developers then come and make the diagram
        pretty. Unfortunately as with UML spatial location on a diagram can
        infer semantics. In terms of time ratio its probably a 3 minute job
        prettifying the diagram. There is an auto layout diagram option but as
        has been said layout by numbers, the sort of thing this does, doesn't
        always look pretty.

        Window layout:
        I use c++ and the visual studio resource script. This is a case of
        laying out the dialog based on a set of rules, IE a button is typically
        14 units high. This is a case of working out the maths correctly and
        doesn't necessarily create a beautiful dialog but does work. My dialogs
        have been described as quite functional and logical but a bit
        utilitarian.

        HTH.
        Nick.



        -----Original Message-----
        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel,
        Susan - Kansas City, MO
        Sent: 14 October 2010 12:21
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
        Coders?

        Nick,

        How do you do the gui programming and uml? What language do you program
        in?

        Susie Stanzel

        -----Original Message-----
        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
        Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:37 AM
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
        Coders?

        Really then the IPod shuffle puts the lie to your argument.  A good
        interface can do without a GUI.  True it's not a high tech device but it
        has
        no GUI its cheap and they sell millions.  Oh and the Braille+ also has
        no
        gui and well we have a few sited coders on it that like it to use in the
        car.

        Ken

        -----Original Message-----
        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
        Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:20 AM
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
        Coders?

        Hi.

        In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
        Just a couple of thoughts.
        We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
        I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
        facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
        programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the
        screen.

        I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
        avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
        in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
        practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it
        would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
        source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
        readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
        would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
        supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
        The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial
        environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of
        windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
        XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows
        based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment.
        Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
        for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a
        job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
        platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
        you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.

        The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at
        all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
        together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
        developer can do.
        I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and
        try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
        work I do.
        With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
        normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted
        in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
        1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show
        software design in a similar way to other developers?
        2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.

        Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
        to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
        would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if
        they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next
        to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.

        I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way
        but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
        the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my
        blindness.

        If my answers would have been
        1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text
        file.
        2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.

        It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking
        for.
        Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
        skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
        others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team
        is made up of individuals with varying skills.

        Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have
        an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
        and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted
        people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated
        and as I said we live in a visual world.

        Anyway, enough rambling from me.
        Thanks
        Nick.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
        Roos
        Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
        To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

        This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
        accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
        a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.


        I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
        to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
        can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
        the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
        simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
        task in all fairness.

        I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
        examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
        ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
        file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
        aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
        example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
        show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
        Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
        service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
        worth.

        We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
        rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
        accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
        field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
        is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
        computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
        could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
        where having no or little sight might aid you!

        One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
        springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
        saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
        man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
        after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
        really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
        from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
        was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
        the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
        on the little GUI side of the software.

        It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
        appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
        software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
        the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
        areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .

        It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
        wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
        are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
        commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
        OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
        and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.

        And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
        development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
        Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
        and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
        public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
        one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
        as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
        when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
        than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
        time and with less effort.

        My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
        programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
        excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
        increasingly important part.

        Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
        and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
        sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
        (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
        confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
        company.

        Kerneels

        On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:


               I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
        server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
        services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
        java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
        constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
        in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
        traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead,
        I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
        technology by our enterprise architects.

               ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
        <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
               To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
               Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
               Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
        IMHO


               Hi Jay,
               Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
        Swing, SWT, or web?

               Thanks.

               Jim

               Jim Homme,
               Usability Services,
               Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
               Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
        accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
        advice


               -----Original Message-----
               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
               Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
        IMHO

               Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
        java
               developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
        with is
               finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
        are
               certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
        lot of java
               development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
        using web
               based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
        interest in using
               swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
        swing
               accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
        us who
               still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.


               ----- Original Message -----
               From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
        <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
               To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
               Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
               Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
        IMHO


               Hi Listers,

               I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
        needing government
               contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
        this. I have
               asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
        because there
               is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
        programmer so
               maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
        Struts at my
               building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
        fool of myself,
               it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).

               Susie Stanzel

               -----Original Message-----
               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
        Elf
               Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
        IMHO

               hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol

               or hound,or pummel,  or...

               elf
               Moderator, Blind Access Help
               Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
               Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
               - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
               www.alacorncomputer.com
               proprietor, The Grab Bag,
               for blind computer users and programmers
               http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com

               ----- Original Message -----
               From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
               To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
               Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
               Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
        IMHO




                       Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
        finally the voice of
                       reason has made itself known.

                       Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
        them into actually
                       not abandoning it.

                       Take care,
                       Sina

                       ________________________________

                       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                       [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
        Of Ken Perry
                       Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
                       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
        consideration, IMHO



                       If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
        stay away.  It's time
                       to get people to get active and start emailing and
                       calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
        we lose what
                       accessibility was there.



                       Ken





                       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                       [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
        Of Storm Dragon
                       Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
                       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
        consideration, IMHO



                       Hi,
                       I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
        ball on Linux
                       accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
        over Sun.
                       It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
        software decisions,
                       to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far

                       far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
        going to get rid of
                       Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
        is a
                       fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
        somehow manage to win
                       their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
        who
                       they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
        maybe the open
                       source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
        still
                       alive and well after all.
                       Storm

                       --


                       Registered Linux user number 508465:
                       http://counter.li.org/
                       My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
                       http://www.stormdragon.us/
                       Get yourself a Frostbox:
                       http://www.frostbitesystems.com/


                       On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
        wrote:


                       oh know,
                       i wish its just a rumor.
                       if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.

                       regards,
                       prateek agarwal.



                       On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
        <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:


                               I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
        decided to discontinue
                               support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
        alternative is planned).  I
                               would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
        anyone has information
                               regarding this topic, please share.

                               Jamal

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        --
        Kerneels Roos
        Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
        Skype: cornelis.roos

        "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .

        "The Strawberry Jam Law:
         The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
          -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.


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