Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:58:49 -0400

I got a 2tb hd with enclosure for about $140 from newegg.

The installation isn't too hard so there will be little hair pulling.
On Oct 14, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Homme, James wrote:

> Hi,
> If I would get an external hard drive, would that work, and is someone 
> willing to lose their hair in the act of trying to help me do this?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. 
> Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:02 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> Item 1: A few people on this list could help you install the VM based Vinux 
> on a Windows computer running VMWare Player. I'm probably not the best source 
> for this help (Sina knows it much better than I do) but we could spend some 
> time writing up the things you need to download to get started and then maybe 
> talking to you on the phone through the installation process. A spare hard 
> disk to house your virtual machines might give you greater peace of mind 
> knowing that your Vinux distro won't even know about your main hard drive 
> and, therefore, cannot destroy your valuable data.
> 
> Item 2: I'm told that their is emacspeak for Windows but, right now, I don't 
> have Windows running on anything in my Cambridge home so I can't find the 
> download and try the installation to give you any useful help on getting 
> emacspeak running on Windows.
> 
> cdh
> On Oct 14, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Homme, James wrote:
> 
>> Hi Chris,
>> I truly wish I were brave enough to install Vinux. Someday I'll grab a spare 
>> machine and give it a try. Does Emacs Speak happen to work on Windows?
>> 
>> Jim
>> 
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility 
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader
>> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:27 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
>> 
>> Using emacspeak is sort of like having a fully accessible OS but in a semi 
>> self voicing, semi screen reader environment. I like to use it for 
>> programming but it is the ultimate talking multi-tool.
>> 
>> cdh
>> On Oct 14, 2010, at 4:19 AM, <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi.
>>> 
>>> In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
>>> Just a couple of thoughts.
>>> We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
>>> I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
>>> facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
>>> programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the
>>> screen.
>>> 
>>> I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
>>> avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
>>> in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
>>> practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it
>>> would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
>>> source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
>>> readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
>>> would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
>>> supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
>>> The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial
>>> environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of
>>> windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
>>> XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows
>>> based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment.
>>> Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
>>> for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a
>>> job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
>>> platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
>>> you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.
>>> 
>>> The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at
>>> all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
>>> together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
>>> developer can do.
>>> I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and
>>> try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
>>> work I do.
>>> With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
>>> normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted
>>> in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
>>> 1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show
>>> software design in a similar way to other developers?
>>> 2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.
>>> 
>>> Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
>>> to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
>>> would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if
>>> they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next
>>> to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.
>>> 
>>> I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way
>>> but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
>>> the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my
>>> blindness.
>>> 
>>> If my answers would have been
>>> 1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text
>>> file.
>>> 2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.
>>> 
>>> It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking
>>> for.
>>> Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
>>> skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
>>> others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team
>>> is made up of individuals with varying skills.
>>> 
>>> Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have
>>> an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
>>> and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted
>>> people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated
>>> and as I said we live in a visual world.
>>> 
>>> Anyway, enough rambling from me.
>>> Thanks
>>> Nick.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
>>> Roos
>>> Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
>>> 
>>> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
>>> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
>>> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
>>> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
>>> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
>>> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
>>> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
>>> task in all fairness.
>>> 
>>> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
>>> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
>>> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
>>> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
>>> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
>>> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
>>> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
>>> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
>>> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
>>> worth.
>>> 
>>> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
>>> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
>>> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
>>> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
>>> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
>>> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
>>> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
>>> where having no or little sight might aid you!
>>> 
>>> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
>>> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
>>> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
>>> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
>>> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
>>> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
>>> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
>>> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
>>> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
>>> on the little GUI side of the software.
>>> 
>>> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
>>> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
>>> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
>>> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
>>> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .
>>> 
>>> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
>>> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
>>> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
>>> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
>>> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
>>> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.
>>> 
>>> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
>>> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
>>> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
>>> and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
>>> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
>>> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
>>> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
>>> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
>>> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
>>> time and with less effort.
>>> 
>>> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
>>> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
>>> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
>>> increasingly important part.
>>> 
>>> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
>>> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
>>> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
>>> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
>>> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
>>> company.
>>> 
>>> Kerneels
>>> 
>>> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
>>> server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
>>> services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
>>> java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
>>> constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
>>> in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
>>> traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead,
>>> I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
>>> technology by our enterprise architects.
>>> 
>>>     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
>>> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>     To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>     Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
>>>     Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>> IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     Hi Jay,
>>>     Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
>>> Swing, SWT, or web?
>>> 
>>>     Thanks.
>>> 
>>>     Jim
>>> 
>>>     Jim Homme,
>>>     Usability Services,
>>>     Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>>     Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
>>> accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
>>> advice
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
>>>     Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
>>>     To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>     Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>> IMHO
>>> 
>>>     Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
>>> java
>>>     developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
>>> with is
>>>     finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
>>> are
>>>     certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
>>> lot of java
>>>     development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
>>> using web
>>>     based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
>>> interest in using
>>>     swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
>>> swing
>>>     accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
>>> us who
>>>     still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>     From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
>>> <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>     To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>     Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
>>>     Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>> IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>>     Hi Listers,
>>> 
>>>     I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
>>> needing government
>>>     contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
>>> this. I have
>>>     asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
>>> because there
>>>     is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
>>> programmer so
>>>     maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
>>> Struts at my
>>>     building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
>>> fool of myself,
>>>     it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
>>> 
>>>     Susie Stanzel
>>> 
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>     [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
>>> Elf
>>>     Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>>>     To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>     Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>> IMHO
>>> 
>>>     hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>>> 
>>>     or hound,or pummel,  or...
>>> 
>>>     elf
>>>     Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>     Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>>     Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>>     - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>     www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>     proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>     for blind computer users and programmers
>>>     http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>> 
>>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>>     From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>     To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>     Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>>>     Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>> IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
>>> finally the voice of
>>>             reason has made itself known.
>>> 
>>>             Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
>>> them into actually
>>>             not abandoning it.
>>> 
>>>             Take care,
>>>             Sina
>>> 
>>>             ________________________________
>>> 
>>>             From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>             [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
>>> Of Ken Perry
>>>             Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>>>             To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>             Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
>>> consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
>>> stay away.  It's time
>>>             to get people to get active and start emailing and
>>>             calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
>>> we lose what
>>>             accessibility was there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             Ken
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>             [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
>>> Of Storm Dragon
>>>             Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>>>             To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>             Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
>>> consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             Hi,
>>>             I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
>>> ball on Linux
>>>             accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
>>> over Sun.
>>>             It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
>>> software decisions,
>>>             to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
>>> 
>>>             far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
>>> going to get rid of
>>>             Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
>>> is a
>>>             fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
>>> somehow manage to win
>>>             their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
>>> who
>>>             they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
>>> maybe the open
>>>             source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
>>> still
>>>             alive and well after all.
>>>             Storm
>>> 
>>>             --
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             Registered Linux user number 508465:
>>>             http://counter.li.org/
>>>             My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>>>             http://www.stormdragon.us/
>>>             Get yourself a Frostbox:
>>>             http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             oh know,
>>>             i wish its just a rumor.
>>>             if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>>> 
>>>             regards,
>>>             prateek agarwal.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>             On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>                     I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
>>> decided to discontinue
>>>                     support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
>>> alternative is planned).  I
>>>                     would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
>>> anyone has information
>>>                     regarding this topic, please share.
>>> 
>>>                     Jamal
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> sender immediately and then delete it.  If you are not the intended
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Kerneels Roos
>>> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>> 
>>> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>>> 
>>> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>>> The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>>> -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> __________
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