Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:37:47 -0500

lolol -- i still want to write that web page that bars use by "light dependent" 
visitors... -- for example, putting up invisible text or black on black, and 
hiding everything from the mouse.  I could also make part of it self voicing 
but set the speech rate to a ridiculous speed that only a seasoned screen 
reader user could understand.
I should put on my mean and sneaky hat and look at that if I ever have time.
This list is taking my time today, but the discussion is interesting.
--le




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jay Macarty 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:23 PM
  Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?


  Just on the lighter side of this topic but something that does bring out a 
bit of a point; I was once assigned a fix to a GUI where the user said a 
certain button in the tool bar wasn't showing up. When I read the GUI screen, 
the button was there and I could tab to it and press spacebar to activate it. 
After some going back and forth, it turned out that the button was, in fact, 
actually there but it's visual property was just set to false. This was a java 
GUI so it was a little weird anyway but it was confusing for everybody for a 
time since I seemed to be able to read things on the screen that the users 
weren't seeing. <smile>

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: qubit 
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:55 PM
    Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?


    I think even if we get sighted assistance implementing a gui, or even punt 
off the whole interface to the sighted person to "perfect" the gui (if a gui is 
ever perfect...), it is still important to understand how the gui is going to 
operate so as to interface with it.  It also helps in communicating with other 
employees and customers.  But in my (admittedly sparse) experience doing guis 
directly, I always have to get sighted assistance to tell me what is a little 
bit off, or whether the colors are right, or whether it is appealing to use 
(very nebulous concept).  Sometimes, in the case of family members, the 
communication breaks down when something is wrong but they can't explain in 
their own words what is wrong about it.  For example, I was doing a webpage 
where I needed to print a simple tree of entries, rooted on the left.  I had to 
indent each entry to its proper indentation level.  Unfortunately, the entries 
were all coming out flush with the left margin -- however, even though I asked 
for a sighted family member to "eyeball" the screen, she couldn't explain to me 
what was wrong, only that all the data was there but it wasn't right.  (I know, 
there are ways to query the pixel coordinates with jaws, but that is awkward 
and I needed input for other visual attributes as well.)    What's more, I 
couldn't explain to her in a way she felt comfortable with, what I meant when I 
described the desired layout.  Eventually we ironed this out, but it took a 
ridiculous amount of frustration just to communicate, when the whole thing 
could have been resolved in a few minutes, implementation and all, if we 
understood each other.
    I agree that gui implementation code needs to be separate from other 
processing as much as possible.
    I know I am a bit out of date on current practices and technology, but I 
try to keep informed.  I hope what I say has value to someone.
    Happy hacking.
    --le





    ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Robert J Smith 
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:53 AM
      Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?



      Hi all -- I agree that it would be best if we as blind people could do 
nice gui stuff, but the general concensus here seems to be which I suspected 
all along, that at some point we would need sighted assistance in making the 
thing really look decent.  I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying do it knowing 
that you will probably need sighted help at some point to finish the thing. 

      Bob Smith

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            From:  <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
            To:  <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
            Date:  10/14/2010 09:37 AM  
            Subject:  RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired 
Coders? 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      Hi Susie.

      UML:
      I use a tool called enterprise architect which is about 90% accessible
      with Hal.
      Generally I do all the detailing of classes, use cases, requirements and
      so on, one of the sighted developers then come and make the diagram
      pretty. Unfortunately as with UML spatial location on a diagram can
      infer semantics. In terms of time ratio its probably a 3 minute job
      prettifying the diagram. There is an auto layout diagram option but as
      has been said layout by numbers, the sort of thing this does, doesn't
      always look pretty.

      Window layout:
      I use c++ and the visual studio resource script. This is a case of
      laying out the dialog based on a set of rules, IE a button is typically
      14 units high. This is a case of working out the maths correctly and
      doesn't necessarily create a beautiful dialog but does work. My dialogs
      have been described as quite functional and logical but a bit
      utilitarian.

      HTH.
      Nick.



      -----Original Message-----
      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel,
      Susan - Kansas City, MO
      Sent: 14 October 2010 12:21
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
      Coders?

      Nick,

      How do you do the gui programming and uml? What language do you program
      in?

      Susie Stanzel

      -----Original Message-----
      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
      Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:37 AM
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
      Coders?

      Really then the IPod shuffle puts the lie to your argument.  A good
      interface can do without a GUI.  True it's not a high tech device but it
      has
      no GUI its cheap and they sell millions.  Oh and the Braille+ also has
      no
      gui and well we have a few sited coders on it that like it to use in the
      car.

      Ken

      -----Original Message-----
      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
      Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:20 AM
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
      Coders?

      Hi.

      In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
      Just a couple of thoughts.
      We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
      I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
      facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
      programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the
      screen.

      I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
      avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
      in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
      practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it
      would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
      source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
      readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
      would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
      supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
      The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial
      environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of
      windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
      XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows
      based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment.
      Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
      for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a
      job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
      platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
      you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.

      The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at
      all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
      together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
      developer can do.
      I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and
      try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
      work I do.
      With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
      normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted
      in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
      1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show
      software design in a similar way to other developers?
      2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.

      Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
      to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
      would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if
      they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next
      to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.

      I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way
      but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
      the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my
      blindness.

      If my answers would have been
      1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text
      file.
      2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.

      It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking
      for.
      Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
      skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
      others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team
      is made up of individuals with varying skills.

      Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have
      an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
      and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted
      people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated
      and as I said we live in a visual world.

      Anyway, enough rambling from me.
      Thanks
      Nick.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
      Roos
      Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

      This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
      accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
      a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.


      I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
      to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
      can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
      the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
      simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
      task in all fairness.

      I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
      examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
      ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
      file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
      aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
      example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
      show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
      Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
      service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
      worth.

      We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
      rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
      accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
      field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
      is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
      computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
      could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
      where having no or little sight might aid you!

      One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
      springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
      saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
      man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
      after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
      really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
      from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
      was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
      the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
      on the little GUI side of the software.

      It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
      appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
      software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
      the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
      areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .

      It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
      wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
      are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
      commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
      OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
      and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.

      And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
      development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
      Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
      and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
      public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
      one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
      as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
      when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
      than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
      time and with less effort.

      My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
      programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
      excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
      increasingly important part.

      Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
      and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
      sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
      (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
      confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
      company.

      Kerneels

      On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:


             I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
      server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
      services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
      java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
      constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
      in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
      traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead,
      I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
      technology by our enterprise architects.

             ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
      <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
             To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
             Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
             Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
      IMHO


             Hi Jay,
             Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
      Swing, SWT, or web?

             Thanks.

             Jim

             Jim Homme,
             Usability Services,
             Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
             Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
      accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
      advice


             -----Original Message-----
             From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
             Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
             To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
             Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
      IMHO

             Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
      java
             developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
      with is
             finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
      are
             certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
      lot of java
             development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
      using web
             based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
      interest in using
             swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
      swing
             accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
      us who
             still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.


             ----- Original Message -----
             From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
      <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
             To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
             Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
             Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
      IMHO


             Hi Listers,

             I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
      needing government
             contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
      this. I have
             asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
      because there
             is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
      programmer so
             maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
      Struts at my
             building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
      fool of myself,
             it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).

             Susie Stanzel

             -----Original Message-----
             From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
             [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
      Elf
             Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
             To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
             Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
      IMHO

             hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol

             or hound,or pummel,  or...

             elf
             Moderator, Blind Access Help
             Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
             Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
             - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
             www.alacorncomputer.com
             proprietor, The Grab Bag,
             for blind computer users and programmers
             http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com

             ----- Original Message -----
             From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
      <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
             To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
             Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
             Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
      IMHO




                     Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
      finally the voice of
                     reason has made itself known.

                     Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
      them into actually
                     not abandoning it.

                     Take care,
                     Sina

                     ________________________________

                     From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                     [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
      Of Ken Perry
                     Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
                     To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                     Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
      consideration, IMHO



                     If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
      stay away.  It's time
                     to get people to get active and start emailing and
                     calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
      we lose what
                     accessibility was there.



                     Ken





                     From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                     [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
      Of Storm Dragon
                     Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
                     To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                     Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
      consideration, IMHO



                     Hi,
                     I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
      ball on Linux
                     accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
      over Sun.
                     It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
      software decisions,
                     to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far

                     far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
      going to get rid of
                     Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
      is a
                     fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
      somehow manage to win
                     their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
      who
                     they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
      maybe the open
                     source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
      still
                     alive and well after all.
                     Storm

                     --


                     Registered Linux user number 508465:
                     http://counter.li.org/
                     My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
                     http://www.stormdragon.us/
                     Get yourself a Frostbox:
                     http://www.frostbitesystems.com/


                     On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
      wrote:


                     oh know,
                     i wish its just a rumor.
                     if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.

                     regards,
                     prateek agarwal.



                     On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
      <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:


                             I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
      decided to discontinue
                             support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
      alternative is planned).  I
                             would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
      anyone has information
                             regarding this topic, please share.

                             Jamal

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      --
      Kerneels Roos
      Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
      Skype: cornelis.roos

      "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .

      "The Strawberry Jam Law:
       The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
        -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.


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