Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "Jay Macarty" <jay.macarty2009@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:23:00 -0500

Just on the lighter side of this topic but something that does bring out a bit 
of a point; I was once assigned a fix to a GUI where the user said a certain 
button in the tool bar wasn't showing up. When I read the GUI screen, the 
button was there and I could tab to it and press spacebar to activate it. After 
some going back and forth, it turned out that the button was, in fact, actually 
there but it's visual property was just set to false. This was a java GUI so it 
was a little weird anyway but it was confusing for everybody for a time since I 
seemed to be able to read things on the screen that the users weren't seeing. 
<smile>

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: qubit 
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:55 PM
  Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?


  I think even if we get sighted assistance implementing a gui, or even punt 
off the whole interface to the sighted person to "perfect" the gui (if a gui is 
ever perfect...), it is still important to understand how the gui is going to 
operate so as to interface with it.  It also helps in communicating with other 
employees and customers.  But in my (admittedly sparse) experience doing guis 
directly, I always have to get sighted assistance to tell me what is a little 
bit off, or whether the colors are right, or whether it is appealing to use 
(very nebulous concept).  Sometimes, in the case of family members, the 
communication breaks down when something is wrong but they can't explain in 
their own words what is wrong about it.  For example, I was doing a webpage 
where I needed to print a simple tree of entries, rooted on the left.  I had to 
indent each entry to its proper indentation level.  Unfortunately, the entries 
were all coming out flush with the left margin -- however, even though I asked 
for a sighted family member to "eyeball" the screen, she couldn't explain to me 
what was wrong, only that all the data was there but it wasn't right.  (I know, 
there are ways to query the pixel coordinates with jaws, but that is awkward 
and I needed input for other visual attributes as well.)    What's more, I 
couldn't explain to her in a way she felt comfortable with, what I meant when I 
described the desired layout.  Eventually we ironed this out, but it took a 
ridiculous amount of frustration just to communicate, when the whole thing 
could have been resolved in a few minutes, implementation and all, if we 
understood each other.
  I agree that gui implementation code needs to be separate from other 
processing as much as possible.
  I know I am a bit out of date on current practices and technology, but I try 
to keep informed.  I hope what I say has value to someone.
  Happy hacking.
  --le





  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Robert J Smith 
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:53 AM
    Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?



    Hi all -- I agree that it would be best if we as blind people could do nice 
gui stuff, but the general concensus here seems to be which I suspected all 
along, that at some point we would need sighted assistance in making the thing 
really look decent.  I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying do it knowing that 
you will probably need sighted help at some point to finish the thing. 

    Bob Smith

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          From:  <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
          To:  <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
          Date:  10/14/2010 09:37 AM  
          Subject:  RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired 
Coders? 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Hi Susie.

    UML:
    I use a tool called enterprise architect which is about 90% accessible
    with Hal.
    Generally I do all the detailing of classes, use cases, requirements and
    so on, one of the sighted developers then come and make the diagram
    pretty. Unfortunately as with UML spatial location on a diagram can
    infer semantics. In terms of time ratio its probably a 3 minute job
    prettifying the diagram. There is an auto layout diagram option but as
    has been said layout by numbers, the sort of thing this does, doesn't
    always look pretty.

    Window layout:
    I use c++ and the visual studio resource script. This is a case of
    laying out the dialog based on a set of rules, IE a button is typically
    14 units high. This is a case of working out the maths correctly and
    doesn't necessarily create a beautiful dialog but does work. My dialogs
    have been described as quite functional and logical but a bit
    utilitarian.

    HTH.
    Nick.



    -----Original Message-----
    From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel,
    Susan - Kansas City, MO
    Sent: 14 October 2010 12:21
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
    Coders?

    Nick,

    How do you do the gui programming and uml? What language do you program
    in?

    Susie Stanzel

    -----Original Message-----
    From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
    Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:37 AM
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
    Coders?

    Really then the IPod shuffle puts the lie to your argument.  A good
    interface can do without a GUI.  True it's not a high tech device but it
    has
    no GUI its cheap and they sell millions.  Oh and the Braille+ also has
    no
    gui and well we have a few sited coders on it that like it to use in the
    car.

    Ken

    -----Original Message-----
    From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
    Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:20 AM
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
    Coders?

    Hi.

    In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
    Just a couple of thoughts.
    We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
    I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
    facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
    programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the
    screen.

    I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
    avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
    in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
    practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it
    would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
    source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
    readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
    would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
    supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
    The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial
    environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of
    windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
    XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows
    based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment.
    Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
    for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a
    job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
    platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
    you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.

    The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at
    all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
    together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
    developer can do.
    I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and
    try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
    work I do.
    With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
    normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted
    in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
    1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show
    software design in a similar way to other developers?
    2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.

    Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
    to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
    would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if
    they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next
    to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.

    I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way
    but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
    the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my
    blindness.

    If my answers would have been
    1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text
    file.
    2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.

    It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking
    for.
    Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
    skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
    others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team
    is made up of individuals with varying skills.

    Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have
    an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
    and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted
    people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated
    and as I said we live in a visual world.

    Anyway, enough rambling from me.
    Thanks
    Nick.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
    Roos
    Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

    This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
    accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
    a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.


    I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
    to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
    can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
    the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
    simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
    task in all fairness.

    I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
    examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
    ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
    file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
    aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
    example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
    show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
    Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
    service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
    worth.

    We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
    rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
    accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
    field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
    is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
    computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
    could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
    where having no or little sight might aid you!

    One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
    springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
    saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
    man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
    after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
    really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
    from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
    was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
    the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
    on the little GUI side of the software.

    It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
    appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
    software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
    the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
    areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .

    It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
    wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
    are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
    commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
    OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
    and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.

    And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
    development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
    Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
    and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
    public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
    one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
    as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
    when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
    than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
    time and with less effort.

    My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
    programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
    excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
    increasingly important part.

    Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
    and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
    sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
    (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
    confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
    company.

    Kerneels

    On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:


           I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
    server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
    services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
    java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
    constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
    in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
    traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead,
    I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
    technology by our enterprise architects.

           ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
    <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
           To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
           Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
           Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
    IMHO


           Hi Jay,
           Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
    Swing, SWT, or web?

           Thanks.

           Jim

           Jim Homme,
           Usability Services,
           Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
           Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
    accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
    advice


           -----Original Message-----
           From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
           Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
           To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
           Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
    IMHO

           Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
    java
           developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
    with is
           finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
    are
           certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
    lot of java
           development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
    using web
           based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
    interest in using
           swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
    swing
           accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
    us who
           still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.


           ----- Original Message -----
           From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
    <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
           To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
           Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
           Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
    IMHO


           Hi Listers,

           I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
    needing government
           contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
    this. I have
           asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
    because there
           is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
    programmer so
           maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
    Struts at my
           building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
    fool of myself,
           it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).

           Susie Stanzel

           -----Original Message-----
           From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
           [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
    Elf
           Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
           To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
           Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
    IMHO

           hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol

           or hound,or pummel,  or...

           elf
           Moderator, Blind Access Help
           Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
           Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
           - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
           www.alacorncomputer.com
           proprietor, The Grab Bag,
           for blind computer users and programmers
           http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com

           ----- Original Message -----
           From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
    <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
           To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
           Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
           Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
    IMHO




                   Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
    finally the voice of
                   reason has made itself known.

                   Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
    them into actually
                   not abandoning it.

                   Take care,
                   Sina

                   ________________________________

                   From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                   [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
    Of Ken Perry
                   Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
                   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                   Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
    consideration, IMHO



                   If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
    stay away.  It's time
                   to get people to get active and start emailing and
                   calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
    we lose what
                   accessibility was there.



                   Ken





                   From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                   [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
    Of Storm Dragon
                   Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
                   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                   Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
    consideration, IMHO



                   Hi,
                   I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
    ball on Linux
                   accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
    over Sun.
                   It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
    software decisions,
                   to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far

                   far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
    going to get rid of
                   Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
    is a
                   fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
    somehow manage to win
                   their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
    who
                   they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
    maybe the open
                   source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
    still
                   alive and well after all.
                   Storm

                   --


                   Registered Linux user number 508465:
                   http://counter.li.org/
                   My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
                   http://www.stormdragon.us/
                   Get yourself a Frostbox:
                   http://www.frostbitesystems.com/


                   On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
    wrote:


                   oh know,
                   i wish its just a rumor.
                   if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.

                   regards,
                   prateek agarwal.



                   On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
    <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:


                           I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
    decided to discontinue
                           support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
    alternative is planned).  I
                           would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
    anyone has information
                           regarding this topic, please share.

                           Jamal

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    --
    Kerneels Roos
    Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
    Skype: cornelis.roos

    "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .

    "The Strawberry Jam Law:
     The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
      -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.


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