Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:20:34 -0400

Correction: The price of JAWS has no relationship to the number of people who 
buy it. Some agency within the European Union sets prices for all sorts of AT 
and companies that do business in Europe cannot, by EU law, charge less in 
other parts of the world. So, if the EU says that screen readers  are  worth 
$1100 USD, then FS will not charge a penny less. If you find the EU AT 
purchasing schedule, you will find exactly why most AT, software and hardware, 
have similar prices across the entire industry.

Take a look at 40 cell braille displays. Virtually all of them cost almost the 
exact same and this is due to the failure of socialism as the EU sets the price 
and then buys boatloads of the products and distribute them to their 
populations at no or a very low cost.

FS' PAC Mate braille displays are a little less expensive (they have fewer 
features as well) and they seem cheap on EU standards that virtually all 
refreshable braille displays cost. If you know the insider, the fact that it 
costs FS less than $400 per unit to manufacture, box and ship to the customer, 
you can see exactly why socialism breaks the competition model in a very bad 
way.

I don't object to governments helping out by defraying some or even all of the 
cost of an AT but when the EU, the largest consumer of AT, sets the price and 
is the biggest customer, you find out how price controls in one very wealthy 
part of the world keeps useful AT out of the hands of people in the rest of the 
world.

The US Federal government has some specific price guidelines (I think you can 
find such in the GSA schedule) but here in the US, vendors bid for large 
purchases and the cost to the government actually becomes lower through the 
bidding process which doesn't seem to exist in Europe anymore.

cdh 


On Oct 14, 2010, at 1:05 PM, Bryan Schulz wrote:

> why would you not be in favor of ms including speech that could equal or beat 
> jaws?
> the main factor that jacks the price of jaws is a target group of users.
> the cost of development would be spread among everyone who uses windows 
> instead of the group of us who continually pay jaws for not much improvement.
> 
> 
> Bryan Schulz
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:48 AM
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I'd be in favor of an OS that works for everyone including people who are 
> blind, not one just for the blind. We all live in the same world. I don't 
> think I'm in favor of an OS that includes a screen reader, but I haven't 
> given that a lot of thought.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. 
> Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:59 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> Hi Ken.
> The Ipod shuffle and devices which don't have a screen are generally
> devices which do a specific task, in this case play media files.
> What I think was being suggested was an OS specifically for the blind
> which doesn't need an expensive screen reader or a screen reader at all.
> IMO that's in practical.
> 
> Your absolutely write, theirs many software jobs which doesn't involve
> the writing of UI and in my experience your also write in that the
> design of UI for applications and devices which need it is now becoming
> the remit of human factors engineers, often not the same person as the
> engineer that actually does the work.
> 
> My real point is that the vast majority of software engineers, even if
> they specialize in embedded type stuff, will have some basic
> understanding of how to put a GUI together and if they don't the tools,
> vs form designer and the like make, make it very easy to learn. There
> for to make a blind software engineer comparable with our sighted
> counterparts GUI design is probably something we should understand.
> 
> Your also write that there are many situations where a software engineer
> doesn't need to produce a UI. I'm in a job where in 5 and a half years
> I've only ever had to do it twice. But there are also just as many, if
> not more, where having some knowledge is useful, even if its to avoid
> the UI designers pulling a fast one on you.
> 
> Thanks.
> Nick.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: 14 October 2010 15:34
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Yes well I was answering this part of your email
> 
> You said,
> "I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
> avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
> in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
> practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it"
> 
> 
> The shuffle is an OS and there are lots others like it that use xml
> interfaces to configure and use the point is you can be a coder a very
> good
> one without ever doing any UI programming.  I don't see it as limiting I
> see
> it as specializing.  Think of the amount of programming people at
> Lexmart do
> for their printers and the amount of UI involved in that.  Same goes for
> many device programming and all of them have OS of types and very little
> UI
> involved.  I am not saying this to say don't learn to make UI I am
> saying
> you can definitely find work as a specialist if you know what you're
> doing.
> 
> 
> EI know of many companies in Utah that don't even have the main coders
> making UI because yes they pay lower level coders only 12$ to 15$ an
> hour
> where they pay people that like to do the low level stuff like me more
> than
> 28 an hour.  The point is UI is important but a trained sited painter
> could
> do it with little training on the computer.
> 
> Ken
> 
> Ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:41 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> thanks Jim,
> You said what I was going to.
> 
> Thanks.
> Nick.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: 14 October 2010 14:37
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Hi,
> Ken, when you say this, keep in mind the environment the user is using
> the device in. While they are driving, they want to reach over and turn
> up the volume or pick another tune. They want to keep their eyes on the
> road while they hear the speech or whatever. While they are in front of
> a computer, they want to see what's going on, and that needs to be
> pleasing.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:37 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Really then the IPod shuffle puts the lie to your argument.  A good
> interface can do without a GUI.  True it's not a high tech device but it
> has
> no GUI its cheap and they sell millions.  Oh and the Braille+ also has
> no
> gui and well we have a few sited coders on it that like it to use in the
> car.
> 
> Ken
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:20 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Hi.
> 
> In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
> Just a couple of thoughts.
> We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
> I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
> facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
> programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the
> screen.
> 
> I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
> avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
> in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
> practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it
> would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
> source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
> readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
> would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
> supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
> The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial
> environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of
> windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
> XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows
> based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment.
> Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
> for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a
> job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
> platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
> you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.
> 
> The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at
> all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
> together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
> developer can do.
> I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and
> try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
> work I do.
> With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
> normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted
> in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
> 1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show
> software design in a similar way to other developers?
> 2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.
> 
> Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
> to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
> would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if
> they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next
> to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.
> 
> I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way
> but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
> the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my
> blindness.
> 
> If my answers would have been
> 1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text
> file.
> 2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.
> 
> It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking
> for.
> Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
> skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
> others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team
> is made up of individuals with varying skills.
> 
> Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have
> an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
> and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted
> people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated
> and as I said we live in a visual world.
> 
> Anyway, enough rambling from me.
> Thanks
> Nick.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
> Roos
> Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
> 
> 
> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
> task in all fairness.
> 
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
> worth.
> 
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
> where having no or little sight might aid you!
> 
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
> on the little GUI side of the software.
> 
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .
> 
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.
> 
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
> and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
> time and with less effort.
> 
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
> increasingly important part.
> 
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
> company.
> 
> Kerneels
> 
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
> 
> 
>       I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
> server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
> services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
> java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
> constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
> in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
> traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead,
> I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
> technology by our enterprise architects.
> 
>       ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
> 
>       Hi Jay,
>       Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
> Swing, SWT, or web?
> 
>       Thanks.
> 
>       Jim
> 
>       Jim Homme,
>       Usability Services,
>       Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>       Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice
> 
> 
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
>       Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
>       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
>       Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
> java
>       developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
> with is
>       finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
> are
>       certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
> lot of java
>       development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
> using web
>       based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
> interest in using
>       swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
> swing
>       accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
> us who
>       still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
> 
> 
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
> <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
> 
>       Hi Listers,
> 
>       I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
> needing government
>       contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
> this. I have
>       asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
> because there
>       is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
> programmer so
>       maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
> Struts at my
>       building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
> fool of myself,
>       it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
> 
>       Susie Stanzel
> 
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
> Elf
>       Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
>       hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
> 
>       or hound,or pummel,  or...
> 
>       elf
>       Moderator, Blind Access Help
>       Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>       Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>       - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>       www.alacorncomputer.com
>       proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>       for blind computer users and programmers
>       http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> 
>       ----- Original Message -----
>       From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO
> 
> 
> 
> 
>               Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
> finally the voice of
>               reason has made itself known.
> 
>               Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
> them into actually
>               not abandoning it.
> 
>               Take care,
>               Sina
> 
>               ________________________________
> 
>               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Ken Perry
>               Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>               Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
> consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> 
>               If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
> stay away.  It's time
>               to get people to get active and start emailing and
>               calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
> we lose what
>               accessibility was there.
> 
> 
> 
>               Ken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Storm Dragon
>               Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>               Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
> consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> 
>               Hi,
>               I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
> ball on Linux
>               accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
> over Sun.
>               It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
> software decisions,
>               to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
> 
>               far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
> going to get rid of
>               Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
> is a
>               fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
> somehow manage to win
>               their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
> who
>               they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
> maybe the open
>               source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
> still
>               alive and well after all.
>               Storm
> 
>               --
> 
> 
>               Registered Linux user number 508465:
>               http://counter.li.org/
>               My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>               http://www.stormdragon.us/
>               Get yourself a Frostbox:
>               http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
> 
> 
>               On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
> wrote:
> 
> 
>               oh know,
>               i wish its just a rumor.
>               if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
> 
>               regards,
>               prateek agarwal.
> 
> 
> 
>               On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
> 
> 
>                       I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
> decided to discontinue
>                       support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
> alternative is planned).  I
>                       would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
> anyone has information
>                       regarding this topic, please share.
> 
>                       Jamal
> 
>                       __________
>                       View the list's information and change your
> settings at
>                       //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> 
> 
> 
>               __________
>               View the list's information and change your settings at
>               //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> 
>               __________
>               View the list's information and change your settings at
>               //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       __________
>       View the list's information and change your settings at
>       //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
>       __________
>       View the list's information and change your settings at
>       //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
>       __________
>       View the list's information and change your settings at
>       //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> 
>       This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
> intended solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
> sender immediately and then delete it.  If you are not the intended
> recipient, you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this
> e-mail without the author's prior permission.  The views expressed in
> this e-mail message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark
> Inc., its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
>       __________
>       View the list's information and change your settings at
>       //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> 
>       __________
>       View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
> 
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
> 
> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
> The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>  -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
> 
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

Other related posts:

  1. Home
  2. programmingblind
  3. Archive
  4. 10-2010