RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "Aubertin, Gerry" <gaubertin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:32:01 -0700

Hello:

   For what it's worth:

   I once mucked about with a variant of Basic called RAPIDQ Basic (by william 
Yu). The neat thing about this programming language is that it produced fairly 
decent GUI applications without the need for an IDE. All the stuff required to 
create GUI objects was described right within a single text file.

   From what I remember the code looked kind of like:

create win1 as qwindow
width = 600
height = 480
create but1 as qbutton
left = 100
top = 100
width = 20
height = 20
caption = "OK"
onclick = ok_click_subroutine_name
end create
end create

   or something like that. Sadly this product is no longer being developed 
super-actively, but it is still available on the internet (and it is free). It 
would be nice if more languages were that simple.


Gerry Aubertin
Programmer/Analyst
Phone: (519) 271-4840 Ext. 8807

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________________________________________
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit 
[lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:55 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

I think even if we get sighted assistance implementing a gui, or even punt off 
the whole interface to the sighted person to "perfect" the gui (if a gui is 
ever perfect...), it is still important to understand how the gui is going to 
operate so as to interface with it.  It also helps in communicating with other 
employees and customers.  But in my (admittedly sparse) experience doing guis 
directly, I always have to get sighted assistance to tell me what is a little 
bit off, or whether the colors are right, or whether it is appealing to use 
(very nebulous concept).  Sometimes, in the case of family members, the 
communication breaks down when something is wrong but they can't explain in 
their own words what is wrong about it.  For example, I was doing a webpage 
where I needed to print a simple tree of entries, rooted on the left.  I had to 
indent each entry to its proper indentation level.  Unfortunately, the entries 
were all coming out flush with the left margin -- however, even though I asked 
for a sighted family member to "eyeball" the screen, she couldn't explain to me 
what was wrong, only that all the data was there but it wasn't right.  (I know, 
there are ways to query the pixel coordinates with jaws, but that is awkward 
and I needed input for other visual attributes as well.)    What's more, I 
couldn't explain to her in a way she felt comfortable with, what I meant when I 
described the desired layout.  Eventually we ironed this out, but it took a 
ridiculous amount of frustration just to communicate, when the whole thing 
could have been resolved in a few minutes, implementation and all, if we 
understood each other.
I agree that gui implementation code needs to be separate from other processing 
as much as possible.
I know I am a bit out of date on current practices and technology, but I try to 
keep informed.  I hope what I say has value to someone.
Happy hacking.
--le





----- Original Message -----
From: Robert J Smith<mailto:rsmith247@xxxxxxx>
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?


Hi all -- I agree that it would be best if we as blind people could do nice gui 
stuff, but the general concensus here seems to be which I suspected all along, 
that at some point we would need sighted assistance in making the thing really 
look decent.  I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying do it knowing that you 
will probably need sighted help at some point to finish the thing.

Bob Smith

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From:   <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:     <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:   10/14/2010 09:37 AM
Subject:        RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

________________________________



Hi Susie.

UML:
I use a tool called enterprise architect which is about 90% accessible
with Hal.
Generally I do all the detailing of classes, use cases, requirements and
so on, one of the sighted developers then come and make the diagram
pretty. Unfortunately as with UML spatial location on a diagram can
infer semantics. In terms of time ratio its probably a 3 minute job
prettifying the diagram. There is an auto layout diagram option but as
has been said layout by numbers, the sort of thing this does, doesn't
always look pretty.

Window layout:
I use c++ and the visual studio resource script. This is a case of
laying out the dialog based on a set of rules, IE a button is typically
14 units high. This is a case of working out the maths correctly and
doesn't necessarily create a beautiful dialog but does work. My dialogs
have been described as quite functional and logical but a bit
utilitarian.

HTH.
Nick.



-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel,
Susan - Kansas City, MO
Sent: 14 October 2010 12:21
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
Coders?

Nick,

How do you do the gui programming and uml? What language do you program
in?

Susie Stanzel

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:37 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
Coders?

Really then the IPod shuffle puts the lie to your argument.  A good
interface can do without a GUI.  True it's not a high tech device but it
has
no GUI its cheap and they sell millions.  Oh and the Braille+ also has
no
gui and well we have a few sited coders on it that like it to use in the
car.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:20 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
Coders?

Hi.

In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
Just a couple of thoughts.
We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the
screen.

I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it
would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial
environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of
windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows
based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment.
Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a
job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.

The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at
all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
developer can do.
I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and
try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
work I do.
With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted
in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show
software design in a similar way to other developers?
2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.

Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if
they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next
to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.

I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way
but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my
blindness.

If my answers would have been
1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text
file.
2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.

It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking
for.
Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team
is made up of individuals with varying skills.

Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have
an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted
people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated
and as I said we live in a visual world.

Anyway, enough rambling from me.
Thanks
Nick.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
Roos
Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.


I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
task in all fairness.

I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
worth.

We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
where having no or little sight might aid you!

One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
on the little GUI side of the software.

It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .

It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.

And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
time and with less effort.

My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
increasingly important part.

Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
(in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
company.

Kerneels

On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:


       I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead,
I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
technology by our enterprise architects.

       ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
<james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
       Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
IMHO


       Hi Jay,
       Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
Swing, SWT, or web?

       Thanks.

       Jim

       Jim Homme,
       Usability Services,
       Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
       Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
advice


       -----Original Message-----
       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
       Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
IMHO

       Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
java
       developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
with is
       finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
are
       certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
lot of java
       development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
using web
       based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
interest in using
       swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
swing
       accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
us who
       still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.


       ----- Original Message -----
       From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
<susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
       Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
IMHO


       Hi Listers,

       I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
needing government
       contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
this. I have
       asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
because there
       is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
programmer so
       maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
Struts at my
       building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
fool of myself,
       it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).

       Susie Stanzel

       -----Original Message-----
       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
       [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
Elf
       Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
IMHO

       hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol

       or hound,or pummel,  or...

       elf
       Moderator, Blind Access Help
       Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
       Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
       - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
       www.alacorncomputer.com
       proprietor, The Grab Bag,
       for blind computer users and programmers
       http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com<http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com/>

       ----- Original Message -----
       From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
       Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
IMHO




               Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
finally the voice of
               reason has made itself known.

               Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
them into actually
               not abandoning it.

               Take care,
               Sina

               ________________________________

               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Ken Perry
               Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
consideration, IMHO



               If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
stay away.  It's time
               to get people to get active and start emailing and
               calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
we lose what
               accessibility was there.



               Ken





               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Storm Dragon
               Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
               Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
consideration, IMHO



               Hi,
               I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
ball on Linux
               accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
over Sun.
               It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
software decisions,
               to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far

               far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
going to get rid of
               Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
is a
               fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
somehow manage to win
               their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
who
               they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
maybe the open
               source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
still
               alive and well after all.
               Storm

               --


               Registered Linux user number 508465:
               http://counter.li.org/
               My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
               http://www.stormdragon.us/
               Get yourself a Frostbox:
               http://www.frostbitesystems.com/


               On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
wrote:


               oh know,
               i wish its just a rumor.
               if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.

               regards,
               prateek agarwal.



               On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:


                       I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
decided to discontinue
                       support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
alternative is planned).  I
                       would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
anyone has information
                       regarding this topic, please share.

                       Jamal

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--
Kerneels Roos
Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
Skype: cornelis.roos

"Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .

"The Strawberry Jam Law:
 The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
  -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.


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