Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:28:32 -0400

If GUI are comparable to different styles of art, I am most definitely the 
Jackson Pollock of graphical interfaces <laugh>.

On Oct 14, 2010, at 4:28 AM, <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Good point Jim.
> 
> I've often thought that writing a GUI is often like painting. Yes in its
> visual nature but more in that different people like different styles of
> art. I know of a number of situations where one user has liked a GUI but
> someone else hasn't. 
> in this topic so much can be said with the phrase "beauty is in the eye
> of the beholder."
> 
> We also have people, human factors engineers, who design the GUI's for
> our software, the software engineer just makes the human factors design
> in to reality. In this regard there is no reason at all why a blind
> person can't develop a GUI.
> 
> Thanks.
> Nick.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
> Sent: 13 October 2010 17:04
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Hi,
> Something else to consider has almost been mentioned here. In the world
> I work in, we have programmers and user interface designers. The
> programmers, who are sighted, depend on the user interface designers to
> help them get the look and feel just right. So this is not as much of a
> blind thing as you think it might be.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
> Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> Importance: Low
> 
> That or give the project to the assistant to do and go on with other
> things.  Even if an assistant is hired, if they don't know the
> programming graphical user interface standards of your employer, you
> could be out of work real fast and for good cause.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Client
> Services
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:47
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Hi-
> 
> I am very fascinated by this conversation.  In my opinion, GUIs can be
> handled by blind people with a human assistant giving feedback on look
> and layout.  So, don't turn away the project, hire an assistant.
> 
> I have found that it is hard for me to conceptualize a look and layout.
> But if somebody tells me exactly how they want something designed, it is
> rather straight forward.
> 
> 
> 
> H.R. Soltani
> 
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
> Roos
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> 
> 
> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
> 
> 
> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
> task in all fairness.
> 
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
> worth.
> 
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
> where having no or little sight might aid you!
> 
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
> on the little GUI side of the software.
> 
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .
> 
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.
> 
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
> and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
> time and with less effort.
> 
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
> increasingly important part.
> 
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
> company.
> 
> Kerneels
> 
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server
> side. Either that or headless java development such as web services.
> Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java
> developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the constant
> battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an API,
> swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional
> java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't push
> it into a project here because it is not an accepted technology by our
> enterprise architects.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> Hi Jay,
> Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT,
> or web?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
> 
> Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java
> developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is
> finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are
> certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of
> java
> development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web
> based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in
> using
> swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing
> accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who
> still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> Hi Listers,
> 
> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing
> government
> contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I
> have
> asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because
> there
> is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer
> so
> maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at
> my
> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of
> myself,
> it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
> 
> Susie Stanzel
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
> 
> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
> 
> or hound,or pummel,  or...
> 
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice
> of
> reason has made itself known.
> 
> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually
> not abandoning it.
> 
> Take care,
> Sina
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> 
> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's
> time
> to get people to get active and start emailing and
> calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what
> accessibility was there.
> 
> 
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon
> 
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux
> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun.
> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software
> decisions,
> to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of
> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a
> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win
> 
> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who
> they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open
> source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still
> alive and well after all.
> Storm
> 
> --
> 
> 
> Registered Linux user number 508465:
> http://counter.li.org/
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
> http://www.stormdragon.us/
> Get yourself a Frostbox:
> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote:
> 
> 
> oh know,
> i wish its just a rumor.
> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
> 
> regards,
> prateek agarwal.
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue
> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I
> would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information
> regarding this topic, please share.
> 
> Jamal
> 
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> 
> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
> 
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
> 
> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
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