Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:26:51 -0400

Using emacspeak is sort of like having a fully accessible OS but in a semi self 
voicing, semi screen reader environment. I like to use it for programming but 
it is the ultimate talking multi-tool.

cdh
On Oct 14, 2010, at 4:19 AM, <Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> In answer to the subject field my answer is yes.
> Just a couple of thoughts.
> We have got to be careful about limiting our selves.
> I'm in general agreement with what's been said however we have to face
> facts. We live in a visual world. When I tell people I'm a computer
> programmer almost the first question I get asked is how can you see the
> screen.
> 
> I also think the idea of an OS which doesn't have a GUI which would
> avoid having to have a complex expensive screen reader on is a nice idea
> in theory but there are a couple of points which would make it in
> practical. This OS would typically be for the VI market, which means it
> would be a specialist development. This means it would need to be open
> source or proprietary for an access tech company. If you think screen
> readers are complex they are nothing to a full operating system. This
> would indicate that the price would be hefty Or not commercially
> supported in the instance of an Open source OS.
> The other major limitation on a new OS would be support in an industrial
> environment. For example the company I work for has a specific build of
> windows XP aloud on the network, it won't let you have other builds of
> XP connected unless otherwise approved and just forget about non windows
> based OS, not a chance, this is not that unusual in a work environment.
> Also I would be afraid that it would button hole us and make it harder
> for one of us to get a job as a software engineer. If you tern up for a
> job interview and you don't have any experience developing for the
> platform your potential employer targets its another thing that marks
> you down in comparison to anyone else going for the job.
> 
> The other worry is if a blind developer had no GUI development skills at
> all. As has been said on this thread for a sighted person to put
> together a gui its pretty quick so its a normal thing a sighted
> developer can do.
> I'd like to think that I'm someone who will give almost anything ago and
> try not to let the fact I can't see a screen make a difference to the
> work I do.
> With this philosophy in mind there are 2 questions I was asked that a
> normal developer wouldn't have been in the job interview which resulted
> in me getting the job I've been doing for the last 5 and a half years.
> 1. How would you be able to use the graphical UML design tools and show
> software design in a similar way to other developers?
> 2. Can and how do you develop GUI's.
> 
> Write away there you can see the interviewer seeing problems that need
> to be answered to find out if I can do the job. I know some people who
> would have thought it improper to ask these questions but in my mind if
> they hadn't been asked there would have still been a question mark next
> to me when it came down to selecting the successful candidate.
> 
> I've been told since that it was the "I may not do it in the normal way
> but it will get done" attitude of the answers that I gave which swayed
> the panel in my way as it showed my attitude to everything, not just my
> blindness.
> 
> If my answers would have been
> 1. I don't do graphical design. Its pointless, I do everything in a text
> file.
> 2. I don't do GUI's, other people are better at it than I am.
> 
> It shows a defeatist attitude, not something most employers are looking
> for.
> Yes, sighted people can be quicker at both these particular software
> skills but other things I bring to the table I could be better at than
> others in the team, not because I'm blind but because I just am. A team
> is made up of individuals with varying skills.
> 
> Lets not get away from the fact that the negative answers above do have
> an element of truth. If I had my way my design wouldn't be done in UML
> and I wouldn't do GUI development but I don't work in a bubble. Sighted
> people review, approve and use software and designs that I've generated
> and as I said we live in a visual world.
> 
> Anyway, enough rambling from me.
> Thanks
> Nick.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
> Roos
> Sent: 13 October 2010 16:08
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
> 
> 
> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
> task in all fairness. 
> 
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
> worth. 
> 
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
> where having no or little sight might aid you! 
> 
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
> on the little GUI side of the software. 
> 
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact . 
> 
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all. 
> 
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
> and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
> time and with less effort. 
> 
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
> increasingly important part. 
> 
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
> company. 
> 
> Kerneels 
> 
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: 
> 
> 
>       I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
> server side. Either that or headless java development such as web
> services. Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong
> java developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
> constant battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills
> in an API, swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large
> traditional java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead,
> I can't push it into a project here because it is not an accepted
> technology by our enterprise architects. 
>       
>       ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>       Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM 
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO 
>       
>       
>       Hi Jay, 
>       Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on
> Swing, SWT, or web? 
>       
>       Thanks. 
>       
>       Jim 
>       
>       Jim Homme, 
>       Usability Services, 
>       Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme 
>       Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
> accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility
> advice 
>       
>       
>       -----Original Message----- 
>       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty 
>       Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM 
>       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO 
>       
>       Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring
> java 
>       developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble
> with is 
>       finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there
> are 
>       certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a
> lot of java 
>       development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to
> using web 
>       based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining
> interest in using 
>       swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on
> swing 
>       accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of
> us who 
>       still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. 
>       
>       
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
> <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>       Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM 
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO 
>       
>       
>       Hi Listers, 
>       
>       I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
> needing government 
>       contracts in the United States would have some affect on all
> this. I have 
>       asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much
> because there 
>       is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java
> programmer so 
>       maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use
> Struts at my 
>       building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a
> fool of myself, 
>       it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). 
>       
>       Susie Stanzel 
>       
>       -----Original Message----- 
>       From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>       [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
> Elf 
>       Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM 
>       To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>       Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO 
>       
>       hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol 
>       
>       or hound,or pummel,  or... 
>       
>       elf 
>       Moderator, Blind Access Help 
>       Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises 
>       Specialists in customized computers and peripherals 
>       - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! 
>       www.alacorncomputer.com 
>       proprietor, The Grab Bag, 
>       for blind computer users and programmers 
>       http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com 
>       
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>  
>       To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
>       Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM 
>       Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
> IMHO 
>       
>       
>       
> 
>               Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but
> finally the voice of 
>               reason has made itself known. 
>               
>               Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure
> them into actually 
>               not abandoning it. 
>               
>               Take care, 
>               Sina 
>               
>               ________________________________ 
>               
>               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Ken Perry 
>               Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM 
>               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>               Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
> consideration, IMHO 
>               
>               
>               
>               If this is true then it's not time to tell people to
> stay away.  It's time 
>               to get people to get active and start emailing and 
>               calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away
> we lose what 
>               accessibility was there. 
>               
>               
>               
>               Ken 
>               
>               
>               
>               
>               
>               From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>               [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Storm Dragon 
>               Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM 
>               To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>               Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
> consideration, IMHO 
>               
>               
>               
>               Hi, 
>               I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the
> ball on Linux 
>               accessibility pretty much first thing when they took
> over Sun. 
>               It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over
> software decisions, 
>               to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
> 
>               far away from Oracle and their software. I was even
> going to get rid of 
>               Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu
> is a 
>               fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
> somehow manage to win 
>               their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows
> who 
>               they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and
> maybe the open 
>               source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is
> still 
>               alive and well after all. 
>               Storm 
>               
>               -- 
>               
>               
>               Registered Linux user number 508465: 
>               http://counter.li.org/ 
>               My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: 
>               http://www.stormdragon.us/ 
>               Get yourself a Frostbox: 
>               http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ 
>               
>               
>               On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal
> wrote: 
>               
>               
>               oh know, 
>               i wish its just a rumor. 
>               if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. 
>               
>               regards, 
>               prateek agarwal. 
>               
>               
>               
>               On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote: 
>               
> 
>                       I heard from a good source today that Oracle has
> decided to discontinue 
>                       support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
> alternative is planned).  I 
>                       would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If
> anyone has information 
>                       regarding this topic, please share. 
>                       
>                       Jamal 
>                       
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> 
> -- 
> Kerneels Roos 
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 
> Skype: cornelis.roos 
> 
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . 
> 
> "The Strawberry Jam Law: 
>  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." 
>   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting. 
> 
> 
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