RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "Client Services" <Operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:47:08 -0400

Hi-

I am very fascinated by this conversation.  In my opinion, GUIs can be
handled by blind people with a human assistant giving feedback on look and
layout.  So, don't turn away the project, hire an assistant.

I have found that it is hard for me to conceptualize a look and layout. But
if somebody tells me exactly how they want something designed, it is rather
straight forward.

 

H.R. Soltani

From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels Roos
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

 

This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with a
new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.


 I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want to
create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that can't see
properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that the FB examples
are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very simple yet for a
visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive task in all fairness. 

I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would ridicule
having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one file. (or any
other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of aiding blind people)
It's a poor design choice for anything but an example, but then, that's
exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to show you simple GUI creation in
various programming languages. Personally I think it's great and I commend
all the contributors. It's a service to the community, but sighted people
will struggle to see it's worth. 

We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of accessible
GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing field will never be
level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there is no reason for despair,
since there are numerous other areas in computer sciense and programming in
particular where a blind person could compete well and I'm speculating that
there might even be areas where having no or little sight might aid you! 

One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious man,
and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in after we did
our presentation and basically told the  class that we really did spend much
time on this and that we didn't just download it from the net or
something... He did this, I think, because our project was fairly inferiour
graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics the other student's
projects sported even though I spent hours and hours on the little GUI side
of the software. 

It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with the
worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,, areas
where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact . 

It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people are
trained up to believe that interaction with computers should commence in the
generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted OS with all highly
graphical applications with a rediculously advanced and complex and
expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all. 

And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software development
areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle. Also, how we
can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves and our value to a
software development shop developing for the general public or business
where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for one have a little bit
of a complex when think of all my years experience as a software developer
and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with when having to develop a
GUI, and how someone with far less experience than myself could code a GUI
so much faster and better looking in less time and with less effort. 

My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
programming and computer science where visually impaired people can excell
at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever increasingly
important part. 

Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start and
focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then sharing
knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer (in the
identified fields) could approach any development house with confidence of
his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a company. 

Kerneels 

On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: 



I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server
side. Either that or headless java development such as web services. Both
directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java developer with
very marketable skill sets without fighting the constant battle of either
swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an API, swt, which may have
somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional java shop. Personally, I
love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't push it into a project here
because it is not an accepted technology by our enterprise architects. 

----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
<mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To:  <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM 
Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 


Hi Jay, 
Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT, or
web? 

Thanks. 

Jim 

Jim Homme, 
Usability Services, 
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme 
Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice 


-----Original Message----- 
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty 
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM 
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 

Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java 
developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is 
finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are 
certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of java 
development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web 
based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in using 
swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing 
accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who 
still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO"
<mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To:  <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM 
Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 


Hi Listers, 

I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing government

contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I have 
asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because there

is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer so 
maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at my 
building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of myself,

it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). 

Susie Stanzel 

-----Original Message----- 
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf 
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM 
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 

hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol 

or hound,or pummel,  or... 

elf 
Moderator, Blind Access Help 
Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises 
Specialists in customized computers and peripherals 
- own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! 
www.alacorncomputer.com 
proprietor, The Grab Bag, 
for blind computer users and programmers 
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sina Bahram"  <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> 
To:  <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM 
Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 





Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice of 
reason has made itself known. 

Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually 
not abandoning it. 

Take care, 
Sina 

________________________________ 

From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry 
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM 
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 



If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's time 
to get people to get active and start emailing and 
calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what 
accessibility was there. 



Ken 





From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon 
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM 
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 



Hi, 
I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux 
accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun. 
It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software decisions, 
to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far 
far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of 
Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a 
fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win 
their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who 
they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open 
source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still 
alive and well after all. 
Storm 

-- 


Registered Linux user number 508465: 
http://counter.li.org/ 
My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: 
http://www.stormdragon.us/ 
Get yourself a Frostbox: 
http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ 


On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote: 


oh know, 
i wish its just a rumor. 
if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. 

regards, 
prateek agarwal. 



On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui  <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx> <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote: 



I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue 
support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I 
would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information 
regarding this topic, please share. 

Jamal 

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-- 
Kerneels Roos 
Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 
Skype: cornelis.roos 

"Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . 

"The Strawberry Jam Law: 
  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." 
   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.

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