Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:09:45 -0400
Thanks for this.
On Oct 13, 2010, at 3:03 PM, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 wrote:

> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Theresa Ford [mailto:theresa.ford@xxxxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 13:56
> To: DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Subject: Re: FW: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> The XIB file is just XML, and could be created via text editor /
> utility script / simple app.  However, it's not intuitive XML and it
> looks like 69 new lines per basic object (not connected to anything).
> My initial thought is that one could build a "library of objects" text
> files, with some simple substitution and use a simple bash script to
> slam together these text clips to create the xml xib file.  From
> there, the sighted person could open the xib in the interface builder
> and rearrange the view to look right.
> 
> It would be something of a hack, but wouldn't be terribly difficult to
> do the 5 base objects (viewcontroller, label, label linked to
> variable, textfield linked to variable, button with ibaction).
> 
> With those clips, the script could prompt to add as many as needed
> based on the type:
> what would you like your label to say? what's the nsviewcontroller
> class name?  what's your variable name? What's your ibaction name?
> 
> what would you like your label to say? what's the nsviewcontroller
> class name?  what's your variable name? What's your ibaction name?
> 
> Push that through some sed command, string the results, and you'd have the 
> xib.
> 
> Of course, this very hacky solution is not very scalable, and doesn't
> handle serious cases where you need objects that aren't in the clip
> library or you need them to do things that are very cool or apple
> changes their xib syntax or you realize you forgot to add an object.
> Learning the syntax for manually editing the xib xml just looks
> beastly.
> 
> The correct solution would be to toss the problem at the apple dev
> team and see if they can reuse their auto-layout code from when you
> build core data classes to create an accessible form-creation tool,
> with the understanding that it's just going to stack things vertically
> for a sighted person to go back later and beautify.
> 
> Feel free to pass this along to Chris.
> 
> - T
> 
> On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:59 PM, DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490,
> 1, 26 <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Theresa,
>> 
>> Can you answer the Mac programming questions in this message?
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
>> Hofstader
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:51
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
>> Coders?
>> 
>> I think that a company that hired a blind programmer who later struggled
>> to make a GUI that complies with the corporate look and feel, even with
>> a sighted assistant, would have no legal way to fire the blind person
>> over this issue. The company knew the employee was blind when they made
>> the job offer and should probably not assume that the blink is the right
>> guy for working on UI stuff.
>> 
>> A couple of years ago when I was doing a lot of C# programming in
>> VisualStudio, I would drag UI elements onto the form using JAWS and the
>> incredibly excellent scripts currently maintained by Jamal and add the
>> code to make the controls do what I had intended. Later, I would get my
>> wife, not a programmer by any stretch to rearrange the items on the form
>> to look good to people who can see. Yes, I probably could have kept
>> track of x, y, width, height of the controls and programmatically placed
>> them on the form but that would take hours that would be better used
>> working on the guts of my program while my wife could clean up the UI in
>> a matter of minutes.
>> 
>> Now, I'm trying to do some of this stuff with xcode on Macintosh and
>> without the killer JAWS scripts, the layout component is a mystery to
>> me. I don't know if xcode exposes an automation model (sometimes called
>> a DOM) or if VoiceOver can be told to get information from xcode the way
>> that Jamal's JAWS scripts can do. I'm told that AppleScript can serve as
>> a bridge between VoiceOver and xcode (among many other applications) but
>> I've seen no evidence of this actually working for anyone. AppleScript
>> is really slow - a drawback  one can experience by asking VO to tell you
>> the time which causes incredible latency given the complete simplicity
>> of the task.
>> 
>> Any ideas on xcode UI layout that I can do sloppily and have cleaned up
>> by a sightie later would be greatly appreciated.
>> 
>> HH,
>> cdh
>> On Oct 13, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Client Services wrote:
>> 
>>> Yes... Well I was thinking that more blind peple should start
>> businesses.  I
>>> have found I go farther when not limited by somebody else's
>> perceptions.
>>> 
>>> H.R. Soltani
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
>> Jude
>>> T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:55 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
>> Coders?
>>> Importance: Low
>>> 
>>> That or give the project to the assistant to do and go on with other
>>> things.  Even if an assistant is hired, if they don't know the
>>> programming graphical user interface standards of your employer, you
>>> could be out of work real fast and for good cause.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Client
>>> Services
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:47
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
>>> Coders?
>>> 
>>> Hi-
>>> 
>>> I am very fascinated by this conversation.  In my opinion, GUIs can be
>>> handled by blind people with a human assistant giving feedback on look
>>> and layout.  So, don't turn away the project, hire an assistant.
>>> 
>>> I have found that it is hard for me to conceptualize a look and
>> layout.
>>> But if somebody tells me exactly how they want something designed, it
>> is
>>> rather straight forward.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> H.R. Soltani
>>> 
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
>>> Roos
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
>>> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again
>> with
>>> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
>>> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
>>> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
>>> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
>>> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
>>> task in all fairness.
>>> 
>>> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
>>> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
>>> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
>>> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
>>> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
>>> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
>>> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
>>> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's
>> a
>>> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
>>> worth.
>>> 
>>> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
>>> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
>>> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
>>> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
>>> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
>>> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
>>> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
>>> where having no or little sight might aid you!
>>> 
>>> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
>>> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing
>> that
>>> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
>>> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
>>> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
>>> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
>>> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
>>> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
>>> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and
>> hours
>>> on the little GUI side of the software.
>>> 
>>> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and
>> make
>>> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles
>> some
>>> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope
>> with
>>> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
>>> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .
>>> 
>>> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What
>> I'm
>>> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled
>> people
>>> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
>>> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or
>> sighted
>>> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
>>> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.
>>> 
>>> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
>>> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an
>> obsticle.
>>> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
>>> and our value to a software development shop developing for the
>> general
>>> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself
>> for
>>> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years
>> experience
>>> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced
>> with
>>> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
>>> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
>>> time and with less effort.
>>> 
>>> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
>>> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
>>> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
>>> increasingly important part.
>>> 
>>> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to
>> start
>>> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
>>> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
>>> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
>>> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
>>> company.
>>> 
>>> Kerneels
>>> 
>>> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
>> server
>>> side. Either that or headless java development such as web services.
>>> Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java
>>> developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
>> constant
>>> battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an
>> API,
>>> swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional
>>> java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't
>> push
>>> it into a project here because it is not an accepted technology by our
>>> enterprise architects.
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
>>> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Jay,
>>> Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT,
>>> or web?
>>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> Jim Homme,
>>> Usability Services,
>>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>>> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
>> accessibility
>>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay
>> Macarty
>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java
>>> developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with
>> is
>>> finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are
>>> certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of
>>> java
>>> development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using
>> web
>>> based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in
>>> using
>>> swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing
>>> accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us
>> who
>>> still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Listers,
>>> 
>>> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing
>>> government
>>> contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I
>>> have
>>> asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because
>>> there
>>> is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer
>>> so
>>> maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts
>> at
>>> my
>>> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of
>>> myself,
>>> it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
>>> 
>>> Susie Stanzel
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>>> 
>>> or hound,or pummel,  or...
>>> 
>>> elf
>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice
>>> of
>>> reason has made itself known.
>>> 
>>> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into
>> actually
>>> not abandoning it.
>>> 
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> 
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's
>>> time
>>> to get people to get active and start emailing and
>>> calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what
>>> accessibility was there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Ken
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm
>> Dragon
>>> 
>>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux
>>> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun.
>>> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software
>>> decisions,
>>> to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
>>> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid
>> of
>>> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a
>>> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to
>> win
>>> 
>>> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who
>>> they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open
>>> source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still
>>> alive and well after all.
>>> Storm
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Registered Linux user number 508465:
>>> http://counter.li.org/
>>> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>>> http://www.stormdragon.us/
>>> Get yourself a Frostbox:
>>> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> oh know,
>>> i wish its just a rumor.
>>> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>>> 
>>> regards,
>>> prateek agarwal.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to
>> discontinue
>>> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I
>> 
>>> would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information
>>> regarding this topic, please share.
>>> 
>>> Jamal
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are
>> intended
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>>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Kerneels Roos
>>> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>> 
>>> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>>> 
>>> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>>>  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>>>   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>>> 
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References:
- FW: FW: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
  - From: DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

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