RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 13:09:17 -0400

Having been in this space recently, I can say we never used fourth for anything 
nor knew anyone who did.

It's all assembler, thhen c .. C++ is pretty much completely out.

Programming  pics and 8 and 16 bit processors is fun stuff, but a little bit to 
much register congestion control for me.

Take care,
Sina

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell, Jude T. 
CIV NAVAIR
1490, 1, 26
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:16 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
Importance: Low

No, none of those.  What very likely was used was forth.  Lots of embedded 
applications get done with forth including all of the
program code about 50,000,000 lines of it that run the Space Shuttles.

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Midence
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:14
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

I like the speech only ui concept.  I have a microwave  at home that talks.  
It's a mainstream gadget we got for like a hudnred and
fifty bucks or somehting like that.  It  was not designed for blind people 
specifically.  You have a dial that you turn and it
speaks presets for Pizza, soup, TV Dinner, popcorn and the like with button in 
the middle that adds thirty seconds to whatever time
it's set for.  Along the right, there is a column of small round buttons that 
each represent a minute starting at the top from 1 to
5.  Somebody had to code the embedded system That runs it.  The idea of coding 
such a thing is intriguing to me.  What would you
use?  C?  ASM?  Could you use c++ for it?

On the topic of a GUI, what if you allowed the end user total control over the 
look of your app.  You could have a dialog that they
could use to modify the color of the foreground, background and which icons to 
use for certain things.  I believe windows has a
standard set of icons that come up for  certain buttons and controls.  You 
could hire someone to create and save settings packages
that you could offer as a list of predone ui customizations and also offer the 
user the ability to create their own.  Kind of like
what firefox does with themes.
Just make your app fully customizable by the end user and the burden for making 
a visually appealing ui no longer falls on your
shoulders.
You take care of making sure the app does what it's supposed to do and let the 
user decorate it themselves.

Thoughts?
Alex M

On 10/13/10, DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> 
wrote:
> That or give the project to the assistant to do and go on with other 
> things.  Even if an assistant is hired, if they don't know the 
> programming graphical user interface standards of your employer, you 
> could be out of work real fast and for good cause.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Client 
> Services
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:47
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired 
> Coders?
>
> Hi-
>
> I am very fascinated by this conversation.  In my opinion, GUIs can be 
> handled by blind people with a human assistant giving feedback on look 
> and layout.  So, don't turn away the project, hire an assistant.
>
> I have found that it is hard for me to conceptualize a look and
layout.
> But if somebody tells me exactly how they want something designed, it
is
> rather straight forward.
>
>
>
> H.R. Soltani
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels 
> Roos
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
>
>
>
> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle 
> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again
with
> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
>
>
>  I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want 
> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that 
> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that 
> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very 
> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive 
> task in all fairness.
>
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB 
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would 
> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one 
> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of 
> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an 
> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to 
> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's
a
> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's 
> worth.
>
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is 
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of 
> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing 
> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there 
> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in 
> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person 
> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas 
> where having no or little sight might aid you!
>
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university 
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing
that
> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious 
> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in 
> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we 
> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it 
> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project 
> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics 
> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and
hours
> on the little GUI side of the software.
>
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and
make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles
some
> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope
with
> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,, 
> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .
>
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What
I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled
people
> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should 
> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or
sighted
> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced 
> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.
>
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software 
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an
obsticle.
> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves 
> and our value to a software development shop developing for the
general
> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself
for
> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years
experience
> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced
with
> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience 
> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less 
> time and with less effort.
>
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in 
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can 
> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever 
> increasingly important part.
>
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to
start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then 
> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer 
> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with 
> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a 
> company.
>
> Kerneels
>
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
>
>
>
> I would advise spending time on web development with java on the
server
> side. Either that or headless java development such as web services.
> Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java 
> developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the
constant
> battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an
API,
> swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional 
> java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't
push
> it into a project here because it is not an accepted technology by our 
> enterprise architects.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
> Hi Jay,
> Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT, 
> or web?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss
accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay
Macarty
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
> Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java 
> developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with
is
> finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are 
> certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of 
> java development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to 
> using
web
> based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in 
> using swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on 
> swing accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of 
> us
who
> still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 
> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing 
> government contracts in the United States would have some affect on 
> all this. I have asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used 
> very much because there is newer technology out there. I am not an 
> experienced Java programmer so maybe the rest of you will know more 
> than I do. I know we use Struts
at
> my
> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of 
> myself, it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
>
> Susie Stanzel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>
> or hound,or pummel,  or...
>
> elf
> Moderator, Blind Access Help
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
> www.alacorncomputer.com
> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
> for blind computer users and programmers 
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice 
> of reason has made itself known.
>
> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into
actually
> not abandoning it.
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
>
> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's 
> time to get people to get active and start emailing and calling them 
> till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what accessibility 
> was there.
>
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
>
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm
Dragon
>
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux 
> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun.
> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software 
> decisions, to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far 
> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid
of
> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a fork so 
> not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to
win
>
> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who they will 
> attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open source 
> community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still alive and well 
> after all.
> Storm
>
> --
>
>
> Registered Linux user number 508465:
> http://counter.li.org/
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
> http://www.stormdragon.us/
> Get yourself a Frostbox:
> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>
>
> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote:
>
>
> oh know,
> i wish its just a rumor.
> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>
> regards,
> prateek agarwal.
>
>
>
> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to
discontinue
> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I 
> would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information 
> regarding this topic, please share.
>
> Jamal
>
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> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
>
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>
> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>   The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>    -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>
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