Re: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?

  • From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:50:33 -0400

I think that a company that hired a blind programmer who later struggled to 
make a GUI that complies with the corporate look and feel, even with a sighted 
assistant, would have no legal way to fire the blind person over this issue. 
The company knew the employee was blind when they made the job offer and should 
probably not assume that the blink is the right guy for working on UI stuff.

A couple of years ago when I was doing a lot of C# programming in VisualStudio, 
I would drag UI elements onto the form using JAWS and the incredibly excellent 
scripts currently maintained by Jamal and add the code to make the controls do 
what I had intended. Later, I would get my wife, not a programmer by any 
stretch to rearrange the items on the form to look good to people who can see. 
Yes, I probably could have kept track of x, y, width, height of the controls 
and programmatically placed them on the form but that would take hours that 
would be better used working on the guts of my program while my wife could 
clean up the UI in a matter of minutes.

Now, I'm trying to do some of this stuff with xcode on Macintosh and without 
the killer JAWS scripts, the layout component is a mystery to me. I don't know 
if xcode exposes an automation model (sometimes called a DOM) or if VoiceOver 
can be told to get information from xcode the way that Jamal's JAWS scripts can 
do. I'm told that AppleScript can serve as a bridge between VoiceOver and xcode 
(among many other applications) but I've seen no evidence of this actually 
working for anyone. AppleScript is really slow - a drawback  one can experience 
by asking VO to tell you the time which causes incredible latency given the 
complete simplicity of the task.

Any ideas on xcode UI layout that I can do sloppily and have cleaned up by a 
sightie later would be greatly appreciated.

HH,
cdh 
On Oct 13, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Client Services wrote:

> Yes... Well I was thinking that more blind peple should start businesses.  I
> have found I go farther when not limited by somebody else's perceptions.
> 
> H.R. Soltani
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell, Jude
> T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:55 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> Importance: Low
> 
> That or give the project to the assistant to do and go on with other
> things.  Even if an assistant is hired, if they don't know the
> programming graphical user interface standards of your employer, you
> could be out of work real fast and for good cause.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Client
> Services
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:47
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired
> Coders?
> 
> Hi-
> 
> I am very fascinated by this conversation.  In my opinion, GUIs can be
> handled by blind people with a human assistant giving feedback on look
> and layout.  So, don't turn away the project, hire an assistant.
> 
> I have found that it is hard for me to conceptualize a look and layout.
> But if somebody tells me exactly how they want something designed, it is
> rather straight forward.
> 
> 
> 
> H.R. Soltani
> 
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kerneels
> Roos
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Is GUI Programming Worth While for Visually Impaired Coders?
> 
> 
> 
> This message was posted to a reply on the long thread about Oracle
> accessibility concerns involving Java. I thought I'd post it again with
> a new subject, since it deviates from the original topic.
> 
> 
> I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want
> to create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that
> can't see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that
> the FB examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very
> simple yet for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive
> task in all fairness. 
> 
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would
> ridicule having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one
> file. (or any other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of
> aiding blind people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an
> example, but then, that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to
> show you simple GUI creation in various programming languages.
> Personally I think it's great and I commend all the contributors. It's a
> service to the community, but sighted people will struggle to see it's
> worth. 
> 
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of
> accessible GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing
> field will never be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there
> is no reason for despair, since there are numerous other areas in
> computer sciense and programming in particular where a blind person
> could compete well and I'm speculating that there might even be areas
> where having no or little sight might aid you! 
> 
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in
> after we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we
> really did spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it
> from the net or something... He did this, I think, because our project
> was fairly inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics
> the other student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours
> on the little GUI side of the software. 
> 
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact . 
> 
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should
> commence in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted
> OS with all highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced
> and complex and expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all. 
> 
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves
> and our value to a software development shop developing for the general
> public or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for
> one have a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience
> as a software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with
> when having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience
> than myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less
> time and with less effort. 
> 
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can
> excell at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever
> increasingly important part. 
> 
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then
> sharing knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer
> (in the identified fields) could approach any development house with
> confidence of his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a
> company. 
> 
> Kerneels 
> 
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server
> side. Either that or headless java development such as web services.
> Both directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java
> developer with very marketable skill sets without fighting the constant
> battle of either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an API,
> swt, which may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional
> java shop. Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't push
> it into a project here because it is not an accepted technology by our
> enterprise architects. 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM 
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
> 
> 
> Hi Jay, 
> Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT,
> or web? 
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> Jim 
> 
> Jim Homme, 
> Usability Services, 
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme 
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty 
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM 
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
> 
> Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java 
> developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is 
> finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are 
> certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of
> java 
> development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web 
> based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in
> using 
> swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing 
> accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who 
> still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot. 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>  
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM 
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
> 
> 
> Hi Listers, 
> 
> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing
> government 
> contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I
> have 
> asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because
> there 
> is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer
> so 
> maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at
> my 
> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of
> myself, 
> it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin). 
> 
> Susie Stanzel 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf 
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM 
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
> 
> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol 
> 
> or hound,or pummel,  or... 
> 
> elf 
> Moderator, Blind Access Help 
> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises 
> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals 
> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! 
> www.alacorncomputer.com 
> proprietor, The Grab Bag, 
> for blind computer users and programmers 
> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>  
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM 
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice
> of 
> reason has made itself known. 
> 
> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually 
> not abandoning it. 
> 
> Take care, 
> Sina 
> 
> ________________________________ 
> 
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry 
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM 
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
> 
> 
> 
> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's
> time 
> to get people to get active and start emailing and 
> calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what 
> accessibility was there. 
> 
> 
> 
> Ken 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon
> 
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM 
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, 
> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux 
> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun. 
> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software
> decisions, 
> to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far 
> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of 
> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a 
> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win
> 
> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who 
> they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open 
> source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still 
> alive and well after all. 
> Storm 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Registered Linux user number 508465: 
> http://counter.li.org/ 
> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon: 
> http://www.stormdragon.us/ 
> Get yourself a Frostbox: 
> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/ 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote: 
> 
> 
> oh know, 
> i wish its just a rumor. 
> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said. 
> 
> regards, 
> prateek agarwal. 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> <mailto:empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue 
> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I 
> would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information 
> regarding this topic, please share. 
> 
> Jamal 
> 
> __________ 
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind 
> 
> 
> 
> __________ 
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind 
> 
> 
> __________ 
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind 
> 
> 
> __________ 
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind 
> 
> __________ 
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind 
> 
> __________ 
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind 
> 
> 
> This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended
> solely for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender
> immediately and then delete it.  If you are not the intended recipient,
> you must not keep, use, disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without
> the author's prior permission.  The views expressed in this e-mail
> message do not necessarily represent the views of Highmark Inc., its
> subsidiaries, or affiliates. 
> __________ 
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind 
> 
> 
> __________ 
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kerneels Roos 
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998 
> Skype: cornelis.roos 
> 
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" . 
> 
> "The Strawberry Jam Law: 
>  The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..." 
>   -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting. 
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at 
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> 

__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind

Other related posts:

  1. Home
  2. programmingblind
  3. Archive
  4. 10-2010