Hi Nick, If you don't use braille, you can create or use a sound scheme. They give JAWS the ability to speak or play sounds for different indentations. I use a sound scheme that plays indentation sounds every two spaces. With Braille, I get two chances to see the indentation, because I can here it and feel it. I indent my Python and PHP code two spaces. By default, JAWS comes with 8 sounds that play a single piano note starting at middle C and going up the major scale. I can use my ability to tell different notes to associate one of the notes of the scale with an indentation level. Including the margin and 8 indent levels, JAWS can indicate 9 different indentation levels in my scheme. My scheme also plays sounds for various controls and control states, which saves a lot of time because I don't have to listen to it speak some control types and states. It plays the sounds at the same time as it speaks the information from the controls. If someone wants the scheme, I will send it to them. You can turn training mode on so that you can hear the controls and states while the sounds play so that you can get used to the associations. Maybe I can send it to the elf and he can put it on his site so that people can just go and get it without flooding the list with requests to get the scheme. The ability to use sound schemes is one of my favorite features of JAWS. I recommend that anyone who wants to be more productive discover how to use them. Thanks. Jim James D Homme, Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc., james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810 "The difference between those who get what they wish for and those who don't is action. Therefore, every action you take is a complete success,regardless of the results." -- Jerrold Mundis Highmark internal only: For usability and accessibility: http://highwire.highmark.com/sites/iwov/hwt093/ Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent by: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 12/09/2008 04:34 AM Please respond to programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx cc Subject RE: Indentation Griping... Hi. I find that indentation actually helps. I am mostly a c++ developer but our companies coding standards (and nearly every other coding standard I've ever looked at) for c++ mandates an indentation style. With a Braille display and an editor that automatically does indentation as you type it's not unfriendly but actually makes code much easier to navigate. I used to program with out a Braille display and could never understand why any one would ever spend the huge amount of cache on one. That was until I worked at Dolphin and was convinced to try one by one of the other developers there. I now find it much harder to code with out one. I'm not even a particular fan of Braille, The only time I use it is when I'm giving a presentation and coding. The other reason that indentation is a good thing to learn to do automatically is that as I said before most coding standards require it and from a visual point of view for my sited peers it's the normal way to do things. Just my 2 pennies worth Cheers. Nick. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader Sent: 08 December 2008 12:38 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Indentation Griping... Way back when I was a college student, sort of the Paleolithic era, many languages, including Fortran, had rather precise indentation rules (even a variety of different CPU assembly languages) and many of these languages were very important in the job market. The most prolific (including Fortran) was COBOL which everyone hated but $75 p/h in 1979 made one hate it a lot less. I programmed in a language called Neat/3 which was sort of an assembly language with COBOL like extensions ($50 p/h) and we covered a bunch of other languages with really peculiar indentation rules in various classes at university. The worst thing I found back then about indentation rules (one could set tab stops which made things a lot easier) was that a label that one might want to jump to was constricted to a small number of alpha-numeric characters and usually a colon which made making code readable pretty difficult, especially as none of were too fond of comments back then because when using punch cards adding another to the stack increases probability of shuffling. I know COBOL has removed the requirement for indentation specifics in more recent versions but I haven't looked at Fortran in about a million years. I can't think of an assembly language I've programmed in since the late seventies that had indentation rules either. Your Virtual Grandpa, cdh Happy Hacking, cdh Chris Hofstader email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com Skype: BlindChristian -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:21 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Python indentation? Other languages don't have this??? Have you used Fortran? And by the way you might think fortran is an old language. You would be wrong. Fortran is still a power house in Parallel programming they use it to update satellite operating systems and man if you think python is picky just code in fortran a while you have to have comments in one column and execution statements in another and variable definitions in yet another. There are other languages as well. Ken -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian Rasnita Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:27 PM To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Python indentation? Well, I also think that the indentation is not exactly blind - friendly, but the others don't agree. I didn't say that this should be the reason for not using python because it is impossible to solve it, but just that it is something unfriendly that other languages don't have. And I have also told about other things that I personally don't like, for example that python doesn't use braces, but this isn't something unfriendly, because there are programmers that like exactly this. It is just something I don't like. Octavian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:38 PM Subject: Python indentation? >I haven't used Python yet but I expect that I will. I understand that its > indentation is significant to the meaning of the code on any given line > but > don't decent text editors keep one's indentation properly aligned? Adding > audio to describe the indentation of any given line is simple and, of > course, we all can use Jamal's editor to use braces while we type and make > them go away to compile properly. > > I don't know why people choose Python over any other language as I have > spent nearly zero time exploring it but, while indentation rules aren't > exactly blind friendly, I can't see it as a showstopper. > > > cdh > > > Happy Hacking, > cdh > > Chris Hofstader > email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com > Skype: BlindChristian > > > -----Original Message----- > From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian > Rasnita > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:15 PM > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included > > A whole month?! > It is much too much. One day would be enough, but I don't think I will > start > > to like python's indentation in a single day, and probably not even after > a > month. > > Oh, or if you will say that you don't like it but you just get used to use > it, then it is not enough. > > For the moment I can choose the language I need to use and I can choose > only > > what I personally like, no matter what others say. > > If I will see that I could be a part of a team that use python and I could > earn much enough to make the necessary effort of getting used to use it, > then I will probably start using it, but even in that case I don't think I > will say that python indentation is friendly for the blind. > How friendly could it be if it requires a month to get used to use it? > > Octavian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:02 PM > Subject: RE: Creating an Operating System with speech included > > >> >> >> I took 1 month to get so used to the indentation I don't even think of it >> and I did not start with Python as I have previously said so your just >> arguing to argue here. >> >> Ken >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian >> Rasnita >> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:38 AM >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 3668 (20081206) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 3668 (20081206) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 3668 (20081206) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ > View the list's information and change your settings at > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind > __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3668 (20081206) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3668 (20081206) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind This email and any files attached are intended for the addressee and may contain information of a confidential nature. 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