RE: Indentation Griping...
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:40:02 -0500
I will say I have a bias towards the Braille plus and that's not because I
work for APH. I like the ability to type with the Braille keys and it's not
that much bigger than the Icon to matter. I carry mine everywhere. Now if
I had the choice of the Icon over everything else out there and the Braille
plus did not exist then I would pick it as long as I got the docking station
with it.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nick Stockton
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:34 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...
Cool!
I knew how to do it in the console but i didn't know if it could be done for
the icon's GUI.
Nick Stockton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...
>
>
> Well let me just tell you this much. It is a linux based machine and the
> whole user interface is in Python. With your knowledge of Python you
> could
> make that happen in less than a week if it didn't already exist on the
> device.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nick Stockton
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:42 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...
>
> Hey Ken, I was just wondering if you might know if the Braille plus
> supports
>
> other keyboard layouts besides QWERTY for the docking station or external
> keyboard? I'm a Dvorak user so if I ever got one it would have to support
> the Dvorak keyboard layout.
>
> Nick Stockton
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:35 PM
> Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...
>
>
>>
>>
>> Sorry we have a beta in process so only the beta testers get that info.
>> It
>> should be out Jan 7 though and its one step on the way to newer and
>> cooler
>> stuff.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of tribble
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 1:02 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Indentation Griping...
>>
>> interesting. What apps are you working on at APH? or can't you say?
>> Just curious.
>> Happy hacking.
>> --le
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:13 PM
>> Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...
>>
>>
>>
>> In Teddy's defense I was a self employed programmer before I took the job
>> at
>> APH. I didn't feel like learning python fully because I had heard on
>> this
>> list that the spacing was bad news. I had no one to worry about I could
>> code in anything I liked and I picked c and c++ for almost everything not
>> counting the few things I wrote in VB and c#.
>>
>> As soon as I got the job with APH though I have to indent if I use c++ or
>> python so it really don't matter one gives me errors the other gets me
>> complaints from other coders and believe me I would rather the errors.
>>
>> To top it all off I am thinking of using python in my commercial game
>> server
>> and replacing my own language because that way I don't have to write the
>> tutorials on my own language I can just do like we do at work and point
>> developers at www.python.org. All I will have to do is give them the
>> data
>> set and tell them to go at it. I thought of using a dll plug in type
>> thing
>> where they could use any language in Linux but boost has python and it's
>> so
>> much more easy to embed. So my new found fondness for the language has
>> even
>> forced me to make changes in my own personal business.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>> Nick.Adamson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:35 AM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Indentation Griping...
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> I find that indentation actually helps.
>> I am mostly a c++ developer but our companies coding standards (and
>> nearly every other coding standard I've ever looked at) for c++ mandates
>> an indentation style.
>>
>> With a Braille display and an editor that automatically does indentation
>> as you type it's not unfriendly but actually makes code much easier to
>> navigate.
>>
>> I used to program with out a Braille display and could never understand
>> why any one would ever spend the huge amount of cache on one. That was
>> until I worked at Dolphin and was convinced to try one by one of the
>> other developers there. I now find it much harder to code with out one.
>> I'm not even a particular fan of Braille, The only time I use it is when
>> I'm giving a presentation and coding.
>>
>> The other reason that indentation is a good thing to learn to do
>> automatically is that as I said before most coding standards require it
>> and from a visual point of view for my sited peers it's the normal way
>> to do things.
>>
>> Just my 2 pennies worth
>> Cheers.
>> Nick.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
>> Hofstader
>> Sent: 08 December 2008 12:38
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Indentation Griping...
>>
>> Way back when I was a college student, sort of the Paleolithic era, many
>> languages, including Fortran, had rather precise indentation rules (even
>> a
>> variety of different CPU assembly languages) and many of these languages
>> were very important in the job market. The most prolific (including
>> Fortran) was COBOL which everyone hated but $75 p/h in 1979 made one
>> hate it
>> a lot less. I programmed in a language called Neat/3 which was sort of
>> an
>> assembly language with COBOL like extensions ($50 p/h) and we covered a
>> bunch of other languages with really peculiar indentation rules in
>> various
>> classes at university.
>>
>> The worst thing I found back then about indentation rules (one could set
>> tab
>> stops which made things a lot easier) was that a label that one might
>> want
>> to jump to was constricted to a small number of alpha-numeric characters
>> and
>> usually a colon which made making code readable pretty difficult,
>> especially
>> as none of were too fond of comments back then because when using punch
>> cards adding another to the stack increases probability of shuffling.
>>
>> I know COBOL has removed the requirement for indentation specifics in
>> more
>> recent versions but I haven't looked at Fortran in about a million
>> years. I
>> can't think of an assembly language I've programmed in since the late
>> seventies that had indentation rules either.
>>
>> Your Virtual Grandpa,
>> cdh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Happy Hacking,
>> cdh
>>
>> Chris Hofstader
>> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
>> Skype: BlindChristian
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:21 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: RE: Python indentation?
>>
>> Other languages don't have this??? Have you used Fortran?
>>
>> And by the way you might think fortran is an old language. You would be
>> wrong. Fortran is still a power house in Parallel programming they use
>> it
>> to update satellite operating systems and man if you think python is
>> picky
>> just code in fortran a while you have to have comments in one column and
>> execution statements in another and variable definitions in yet another.
>>
>> There are other languages as well.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>> Rasnita
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:27 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Python indentation?
>>
>> Well, I also think that the indentation is not exactly blind - friendly,
>> but
>>
>> the others don't agree.
>>
>> I didn't say that this should be the reason for not using python because
>> it
>> is impossible to solve it, but just that it is something unfriendly that
>>
>> other languages don't have.
>>
>> And I have also told about other things that I personally don't like,
>> for
>> example that python doesn't use braces, but this isn't something
>> unfriendly,
>>
>> because there are programmers that like exactly this. It is just
>> something I
>>
>> don't like.
>>
>> Octavian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chris Hofstader" <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:38 PM
>> Subject: Python indentation?
>>
>>
>>>I haven't used Python yet but I expect that I will. I understand that
>> its
>>> indentation is significant to the meaning of the code on any given
>> line
>>> but
>>> don't decent text editors keep one's indentation properly aligned?
>> Adding
>>> audio to describe the indentation of any given line is simple and, of
>>> course, we all can use Jamal's editor to use braces while we type and
>> make
>>> them go away to compile properly.
>>>
>>> I don't know why people choose Python over any other language as I
>> have
>>> spent nearly zero time exploring it but, while indentation rules
>> aren't
>>> exactly blind friendly, I can't see it as a showstopper.
>>>
>>>
>>> cdh
>>>
>>>
>>> Happy Hacking,
>>> cdh
>>>
>>> Chris Hofstader
>>> email: cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Blog: http://www.blindconfidential.blogspot.com
>>> Skype: BlindChristian
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>>> Rasnita
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 12:15 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>>
>>> A whole month?!
>>> It is much too much. One day would be enough, but I don't think I will
>>
>>> start
>>>
>>> to like python's indentation in a single day, and probably not even
>> after
>>> a
>>> month.
>>>
>>> Oh, or if you will say that you don't like it but you just get used to
>> use
>>> it, then it is not enough.
>>>
>>> For the moment I can choose the language I need to use and I can
>> choose
>>> only
>>>
>>> what I personally like, no matter what others say.
>>>
>>> If I will see that I could be a part of a team that use python and I
>> could
>>> earn much enough to make the necessary effort of getting used to use
>> it,
>>> then I will probably start using it, but even in that case I don't
>> think I
>>> will say that python indentation is friendly for the blind.
>>> How friendly could it be if it requires a month to get used to use it?
>>>
>>> Octavian
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:02 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I took 1 month to get so used to the indentation I don't even think
>> of it
>>>> and I did not start with Python as I have previously said so your
>> just
>>>> arguing to argue here.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Octavian
>>>> Rasnita
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:38 AM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Creating an Operating System with speech included
>>>
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