Re: In regards to my giving up on programming?
- From: Alex Hall <mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 00:32:38 -0400
I agree. I think part of it, for me, comes from having such a confused
introduction to programming. I tried to teach myself some cpp, gave
up, and learned html/javascript instead. I then started cpp again, and
the two are extremely different; on the one hand I could just say
var a=4
and on the other hand I had to state
int a=4;
My computer science classes eventually got things sorted out,
though... It comes down to the best course for the individual, I
guess, and how he is being taught.
On 7/3/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> The problem with starting with higher level languages is you miss some real
> structure I am not going to go back into the debate. I have said what I
> think is the best cores and people can take it or leave it.
>
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall
> Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2010 12:20 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: In regards to my giving up on programming?
>
> My 2 cents: use Python, or perhaps VB (I have no experience in that
> one, though). Ideas like classes, functions, and so on are easy to see
> in Python, and you do not need to worry about low-level things like
> pointers to memory addresses and other such fun bits of joy. I am not
> saying that you do not need to understand these topics, as knowing how
> something works is always the best way to go, but to get going on an
> actual programming language I think a higher-level one like Python is
> preferable. I started, oddly, with Javascript. That taught me about if
> statements, functions, loops, arrays, and so on, but it is so
> high-level that I did not have to worry about complex details. Through
> school I learned said details, but it helped to be able to think,
> "Okay, so this array I have been working with is just a series of
> these integers I already know about, but starting at a certain point
> in the computer's memory and extending for a fixed length..." Knowing
> something seems to help when the more complex topics come along. C++
> is perhaps not the best starting language since it has a lot of very
> complex stuff in it that most modern languages do not worry about.
> Maybe another good language would be Java, my favorite after Python
> (though I am not a serious developer, so no comments about how slow
> and clunky Java is).
> Anyway, there are my ramblings. Sorry if any of this has been gone
> over before; I have not followed this thread closely, but a message
> grabbed my attention for some reason and I figured I would chime in.
>
> On 7/3/10, Dave <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> It's really a chicken and egg problem; on one hand, you want to learn
>> something meaningful such as how the very complex way Windows renders
>> on-screen widgets works. On the other hand, you need to learn the
>> basics of programming.
>>
>> Imo, win32 isn't difficult if you take things one step at a time;
>> instead of having
>>
>> ...
>> int main (void) {
>> return 0;
>> }
>>
>> you have something like:
>>
>> WINAPI WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance,
>> LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow)
>> {
>> // ... setup windows class (WNDCLASSEX) structure and show the window ...
>> // Message loop
>> MSG msg;
>> while (GetMessage(&msg, NULL, 0, 0))
>> {
>> TranslateMessage(&msg);
>> DispatchMessage(&msg);
>> }
>>
>> return (int) msg.wParam;
>> }
>>
>> And a Windows callback procedure:
>>
>> LRESULT CALLBACK WndProcedure(HWND hWnd, UINT Msg, WPARAM wParam, LPARAM
>> lParam)
>> {
>> switch(Msg)
>> {
>> case WM_DESTROY:
>> PostQuitMessage(WM_QUIT);
>> break;
>> default:
>> return DefWindowProc(hWnd, Msg, wParam, lParam);
>> }
>> return 0;
>> }
>>
>>
>> As a beginner, you won't and shouldn't expect to understand any of
>> this, but I could easily explain at a high level what's occuring here.
>> It also has the benefit of motivating you to learn what each little
>> segment of the program means with the end-goal always in mind. (yes,
>> including pointers, struct's, functional pointers, and even message
>> passing).
>>
>> The problem with winforms and even MFC is that it "hides" and
>> abstracts away almost all of this and does it on your behalf. That's
>> fine as long as nothing goes wrong, which is rare if you write
>> software for any amount of time. I'd be the first to advise you to
>> hit the basic programming books, but don't think that you can't start
>> reading into the topics that you're really interested in.
>>
>> - David
>>
>> On 7/2/10, Tyler Littlefield <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Um, I hate to rain on your parade, but you need to understand c/c++
> before
>>> you just dive in and start writing windows apps. Win32 isn't no walk in
>>> the
>>> park. Lots of pointers, structs and all sorts of weird things that you
>>> don't
>>> just teach yourself very easily.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tyler Littlefield
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> Twitter: sorressean
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jes,
>>>>
>>>> I don't think many folks really build genuine Windows app's anymore.
>>>> The simple fact of it is that UI code is not very interesting once you
>>>> have seen it and understand it. That's why Microsoft built .Net to
>>>> handle much of what programmers had to do before. If you want to get
>>>> down into the guts of how Windows app's work, you should not be
>>>> looking at introductory C++ books, but instead at Windows programming
>>>> books. In fact, "Windows Programming" by Charles Petzold is probably
>>>> the de-facto book on windows programming via win32. Win32 (which is
>>>> in C of all things) is the foundation of much of what you use today in
>>>> Microsoft Windows (proper). Winforms (.Net), MFC (C++), COM, and
>>>> related Windows-centric technologies all eventually call down to win32
>>>> and the wnd-proc message loop system.
>>>>
>>>> Hth,
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> On 7/2/10, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I see your point.
>>>>> A bit of history...
>>>>> In the old days, people used to communicate with a computer via command
>>>>> line
>>>>> interface, or CLI. As the name suggests, this means reading what's
>>>>> displayed
>>>>> on screen (the text) and typing text commands for input. Later for
>>>>> simplicity and for user friendliness, people switched to GUI or
>>>>> Graphical
>>>>> User Inteface. Although it may seem easy now to write programs from
>>>>> user's
>>>>> perspective, it became harder for programmers, especially when it comes
>>>>> to
>>>>> controls and text formatting and other graphical stuff.
>>>>> The console method is here in order to teach how a program would
>>>>> actually
>>>>> look like, in my opinion. Then after getting used to it, you'll be
> ready
>>>>> to
>>>>> move onto graphics things with basics in mind.
>>>>> C++ language is not only used to write Windows programs. It is used
>>>>> virtually in almost all operating systems and computer systems - from
>>>>> writing tiny test programs to even writing part of a program that
>>>>> manages
>>>>> this list. Even many operating systems (not all of them) such as part
> of
>>>>> Windows, was written in C++.
>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jes
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 4:49 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Cc: blindprogramming@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: In regards to my giving up on programming?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken wrote:
>>>>> "You can get up and running much faster on a language like, python, or
>>>>> c
>>>>> and
>>>>> actually see results. Results is what matters when you start out
>>>>> coding"...
>>>>>
>>>>> I couldn't agree more with that. The IDE is a lazy man's way to begin
> to
>>>>> program. To me, any text book or college material which gives you a
>>>>> prepackaged formula, claiming to teach you something isn't really doing
>>>>> you
>>>>> any good and shouldn't even be used by the college. As an example, the
>>>>> book
>>>>> I am using is "An Introduction to Programming with C plus plus, by
> Diane
>>>>> Zak." Thank goodness they used programming, not coding. They only show
>>>>> you
>>>>> the code you need to copy and paste into your IDE, which, in this case,
>>>>> is
>>>>> Visual Studio. I like the way the book introduces new concepts of the C
>>>>> plus
>>>>> plus language to you, but they fail to really get down into the dirt
>>>>> with
>>>>> all of it. For example, they tell you what an algorithm is, and they
>>>>> tell
>>>>> you the various procedures to start writing a program; 1, analyzing a
>>>>> problem, 2, planning an algorithm, 3, desk-checking your algorithm,
> etc.
>>>>> Basically, it just feels like I'm copying and pasting in a bunch of
>>>>> code,
>>>>> into an IDE so I can pass a course. Furthermore, when we finally have
> no
>>>>> errors in the code, the .exe opens up in a command prompt. They don't
>>>>> even
>>>>> help us build real genuine Windows apps, it's all console applications.
>>>>> I've
>>>>> always associated C plus plus with genuine Windows gui application
>>>>> development. What's wrong with this picture?
>>>>> Jes, the proud man.
>>>>>
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>
>
> --
> Have a great day,
> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
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