Re: In regards to my giving up on programming?
- From: Alex Hall <mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 00:20:28 -0400
My 2 cents: use Python, or perhaps VB (I have no experience in that
one, though). Ideas like classes, functions, and so on are easy to see
in Python, and you do not need to worry about low-level things like
pointers to memory addresses and other such fun bits of joy. I am not
saying that you do not need to understand these topics, as knowing how
something works is always the best way to go, but to get going on an
actual programming language I think a higher-level one like Python is
preferable. I started, oddly, with Javascript. That taught me about if
statements, functions, loops, arrays, and so on, but it is so
high-level that I did not have to worry about complex details. Through
school I learned said details, but it helped to be able to think,
"Okay, so this array I have been working with is just a series of
these integers I already know about, but starting at a certain point
in the computer's memory and extending for a fixed length..." Knowing
something seems to help when the more complex topics come along. C++
is perhaps not the best starting language since it has a lot of very
complex stuff in it that most modern languages do not worry about.
Maybe another good language would be Java, my favorite after Python
(though I am not a serious developer, so no comments about how slow
and clunky Java is).
Anyway, there are my ramblings. Sorry if any of this has been gone
over before; I have not followed this thread closely, but a message
grabbed my attention for some reason and I figured I would chime in.
On 7/3/10, Dave <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> It's really a chicken and egg problem; on one hand, you want to learn
> something meaningful such as how the very complex way Windows renders
> on-screen widgets works. On the other hand, you need to learn the
> basics of programming.
>
> Imo, win32 isn't difficult if you take things one step at a time;
> instead of having
>
> ...
> int main (void) {
> return 0;
> }
>
> you have something like:
>
> WINAPI WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance,
> LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow)
> {
> // ... setup windows class (WNDCLASSEX) structure and show the window ...
> // Message loop
> MSG msg;
> while (GetMessage(&msg, NULL, 0, 0))
> {
> TranslateMessage(&msg);
> DispatchMessage(&msg);
> }
>
> return (int) msg.wParam;
> }
>
> And a Windows callback procedure:
>
> LRESULT CALLBACK WndProcedure(HWND hWnd, UINT Msg, WPARAM wParam, LPARAM
> lParam)
> {
> switch(Msg)
> {
> case WM_DESTROY:
> PostQuitMessage(WM_QUIT);
> break;
> default:
> return DefWindowProc(hWnd, Msg, wParam, lParam);
> }
> return 0;
> }
>
>
> As a beginner, you won't and shouldn't expect to understand any of
> this, but I could easily explain at a high level what's occuring here.
> It also has the benefit of motivating you to learn what each little
> segment of the program means with the end-goal always in mind. (yes,
> including pointers, struct's, functional pointers, and even message
> passing).
>
> The problem with winforms and even MFC is that it "hides" and
> abstracts away almost all of this and does it on your behalf. That's
> fine as long as nothing goes wrong, which is rare if you write
> software for any amount of time. I'd be the first to advise you to
> hit the basic programming books, but don't think that you can't start
> reading into the topics that you're really interested in.
>
> - David
>
> On 7/2/10, Tyler Littlefield <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Um, I hate to rain on your parade, but you need to understand c/c++ before
>> you just dive in and start writing windows apps. Win32 isn't no walk in
>> the
>> park. Lots of pointers, structs and all sorts of weird things that you
>> don't
>> just teach yourself very easily.
>> Thanks,
>> Tyler Littlefield
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> Twitter: sorressean
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2010, at 7:10 PM, Dave wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jes,
>>>
>>> I don't think many folks really build genuine Windows app's anymore.
>>> The simple fact of it is that UI code is not very interesting once you
>>> have seen it and understand it. That's why Microsoft built .Net to
>>> handle much of what programmers had to do before. If you want to get
>>> down into the guts of how Windows app's work, you should not be
>>> looking at introductory C++ books, but instead at Windows programming
>>> books. In fact, "Windows Programming" by Charles Petzold is probably
>>> the de-facto book on windows programming via win32. Win32 (which is
>>> in C of all things) is the foundation of much of what you use today in
>>> Microsoft Windows (proper). Winforms (.Net), MFC (C++), COM, and
>>> related Windows-centric technologies all eventually call down to win32
>>> and the wnd-proc message loop system.
>>>
>>> Hth,
>>> David
>>>
>>> On 7/2/10, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I see your point.
>>>> A bit of history...
>>>> In the old days, people used to communicate with a computer via command
>>>> line
>>>> interface, or CLI. As the name suggests, this means reading what's
>>>> displayed
>>>> on screen (the text) and typing text commands for input. Later for
>>>> simplicity and for user friendliness, people switched to GUI or
>>>> Graphical
>>>> User Inteface. Although it may seem easy now to write programs from
>>>> user's
>>>> perspective, it became harder for programmers, especially when it comes
>>>> to
>>>> controls and text formatting and other graphical stuff.
>>>> The console method is here in order to teach how a program would
>>>> actually
>>>> look like, in my opinion. Then after getting used to it, you'll be ready
>>>> to
>>>> move onto graphics things with basics in mind.
>>>> C++ language is not only used to write Windows programs. It is used
>>>> virtually in almost all operating systems and computer systems - from
>>>> writing tiny test programs to even writing part of a program that
>>>> manages
>>>> this list. Even many operating systems (not all of them) such as part of
>>>> Windows, was written in C++.
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Joseph
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jes
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 4:49 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Cc: blindprogramming@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: In regards to my giving up on programming?
>>>>
>>>> Ken wrote:
>>>> "You can get up and running much faster on a language like, python, or
>>>> c
>>>> and
>>>> actually see results. Results is what matters when you start out
>>>> coding"...
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't agree more with that. The IDE is a lazy man's way to begin to
>>>> program. To me, any text book or college material which gives you a
>>>> prepackaged formula, claiming to teach you something isn't really doing
>>>> you
>>>> any good and shouldn't even be used by the college. As an example, the
>>>> book
>>>> I am using is "An Introduction to Programming with C plus plus, by Diane
>>>> Zak." Thank goodness they used programming, not coding. They only show
>>>> you
>>>> the code you need to copy and paste into your IDE, which, in this case,
>>>> is
>>>> Visual Studio. I like the way the book introduces new concepts of the C
>>>> plus
>>>> plus language to you, but they fail to really get down into the dirt
>>>> with
>>>> all of it. For example, they tell you what an algorithm is, and they
>>>> tell
>>>> you the various procedures to start writing a program; 1, analyzing a
>>>> problem, 2, planning an algorithm, 3, desk-checking your algorithm, etc.
>>>> Basically, it just feels like I'm copying and pasting in a bunch of
>>>> code,
>>>> into an IDE so I can pass a course. Furthermore, when we finally have no
>>>> errors in the code, the .exe opens up in a command prompt. They don't
>>>> even
>>>> help us build real genuine Windows apps, it's all console applications.
>>>> I've
>>>> always associated C plus plus with genuine Windows gui application
>>>> development. What's wrong with this picture?
>>>> Jes, the proud man.
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.5.439 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2976 - Release Date: 07/02/10
>>>> 06:35:00
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
>
--
Have a great day,
Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
Other related posts:
