RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
- From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:13:16 -0400
Hi,
I just started reading a book last week on Safari called Visual Basic.net, the
language or something like that. It looks extremely good if you want to learn
the language. Now I need a companion book that tells me how it all works with
using the .net framework.
Jim
Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here.
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-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:43 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
Tada thanks Jamal I thought someone could do it but I want to point out that
it definitely wasn't a new programmer that could just go quickly search out
this on Google you have to know what you're doing. Now try these two
things. Search for simple program in c and simple program in vb on the
internet. You will find my example but you will not find jamals.
All I have been trying to say is if you think IDE's make learning to program
easier you that is not a true statement when it comes to a blind programmer.
You can get up and running much faster on a language like, python, or c and
actually see results. Results is what matters when you start out coding
otherwise people get frustrated with learning the IDE and quit.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:28 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: c@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
Here is a version in Visual Basic .NET, which may also be written in a
text editor.
Module Program
Sub Main()
Console.WriteLine("Hello world")
End Sub
End Module
Compile at the command line as follows:
Vbc hello.vb
Jamal
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:41 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
Um how hard is this
//myfile.c
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <stdio.h>
Int main (int argc char *arv)
{
Printf ("hello world");
Return (0);
}
Gcc myfile.c -o myfile
There I just wrote a program that will compile in this email. I didn't
need an ide I didn't need to drop buttons what I could focus on was the
code.
The problem is you are confusing learning to code with learning to program
applications. Sure I don't want to start my first full blown application
writing it at the command line creating the graphical widgets etc. I do
how ever want to start with a simple step by step method. I could write a
simple program to take input in only a couple more lines of code and see
the results instantly. If I get errors the errors would pop up instantly
you wouldn't have to hunt for the window they are in. In c variables must
be at the top of every code segment or {} section. In languages like VB
and c++ and C# you can throw in variable declarations any where. Which is
easier to teach someone put your variables here or hey throw them any
where and then try and hunt down where the error is?
I could go on but I have had this argument with professors and at least
held my own if not won from time to time. Its great if all you want to do
is make a sited person happy that they made a simple application but if
you really trying to teach them to code and to continue to learn to code
then you shouldn't lose them in the manusia before they understand what
they are doing.
Now I chalange you to teach me to write a visual basic application in the
next email you write to this list. Make it write a message to the screen
and do it from the IDE. See how many steps you have to explain.
ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie McBride
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
applications you're coding.
It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once folks
kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter & instruct
the computer to do what they want, then the next logical progression is
something like C. But I think learning C initially is rather like what my
dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake Michigan in 62 degree water
over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not teach me to swim any better or
any earlier, believe me.
In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught myself
Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort patient
visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because my crazy
billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked well. That is
not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some formal
programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself previously stood
me in very good stead for learning that.
Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
$.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.
On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his
degree
> in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have
> taught when he took hem. College is not all it's cracked up to be but
> that is another argument.
>
> I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has to.
In
> fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the
> VS ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to so I had
> to get
out
> of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do. Heck
> for
that
> matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which
> gets
you
> out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code. In fact you can
> find
a
> few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>
> Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if
> it
is
> for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear...
> A person needs to get a good University Education in Computer
> Programming or
a
>
> related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
> Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help
> on
list
>
> with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for
> learning
to
>
> do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to
> nubes is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of
> solving business, engineering or technical problems into computer
> code. That is where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill
> is mastered then
it
> becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
> solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done
> the former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to
> become a Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their
> own I assume
they
>
> are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right
> mind would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional
> Computer Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal
> education - it just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or
> two out there who did it that way but 99+ percent have taken
> University Courses if they work in the field. Jes said he was working
> on a project in VS IDE, having problems and the process I outlined
> just touched bases with the things he needed to ensure he did, and did
> correctly, to get his project up and running. The blurb about learning
> Programming ie... IPO, was just to start the brain working in thinking
> about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3 things that need to be done,
> sigh, and even that is diferent in today's
OOP
> world.
> Rick USA.
> Message -----
> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>
>
>>
>>
>> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out
>> of college now days. They code by the drop button and create if
>> statement method. Have you actually looked at Job listings. A
>> person that learns to code the way you just laid out whether they be
>> sited or blind will be the bottom of the barrel. Some jobs asks for
>> Visual studio but a monkey can make a form and add an if statement to
>> it to make a button do something.
>> If
>> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
>> getting themselves where they can be put out by some new AI
>> programming language that can make the forms straight from a design
>> chart created by a secretary. That type of coding can be done by
>> anyone.
>>
>> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
>> person can create a half baked program with them. They did the same
>> thing to
the
>> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that
>> taught half baked electronics. Now I am not saying a good
>> electronics person or a good coder can't come from the easy road what
>> I am saying is it is much more unlikely that one will.
>>
>> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an
>> assembled language you will understand what is going on. You
>> shouldn't even worry about the GUI till you know how programs are
>> logically put together and why.
>> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram
just
>> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting
>> slipperier and messier because we don't understand what is going on
>> under the engine.
>>
>> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
>> would be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how
>> to deal with pointers, and understand what a register is because in
>> the long run if you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog
>> maker you will need that information and if you think you have become
>> a coder by creating
some
>> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that
>> job you are not even close to ready for.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>> RicksPlace
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>
>> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we
>> use to be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more
>> complex in other
>>
>> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning
curve.
>> You
>>
>> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you
>> will
be
>> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
>> concert.
>>
>> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure
>> JAWS, again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you
>> can open the
>>
>> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly
nothing
>> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements.
>> And,
God
>> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well,
>> you will be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who
>> get that far.
>> You absolutely need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
>> ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first
>> Hello World
>>
>> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of
>> the Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a
>> textbox or 2 on
>>
>> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code
>> for the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
>> TextBoxes.
>> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
>> Visual
>>
>> Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does
>> not have all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to
>> start with. Once you
>>
>> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a
>> user, Read Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input,
>> you have the
basic
>> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input
>> / Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB
>> you
are
>> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you
>> can pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up
>> when the Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough -
>> the tough
ask
>> questions on list and follow up with more work!
>> Rick USA
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
>> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just
>> want to be
>>
>> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I
>> get
are
>> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
>> Thanks.
>> Jes
>>
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--
Change the world--1 deed at a time
Jackie McBride
Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org
homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com
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