RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 12:49:03 -0400
Nod also its good to point out that you have to set up your environment
there is a bat file to do it and once its set up you can compile vb, C# c++
etc all with the microsoft compilers at the command line.
ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 11:52 AM
To: ProgrammingBlind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
Hi Rick,
The C#, VB, and JScript .NET command-line compilers are included in a full
install of the .NET Framework 4. For example, on my system, the full path
of the VB compiler is
c:\windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\vbc.exe
For anyone who does not have the latest .NET installed (version 4.0), one
convenient way to do so is via a program I wrote called GotNET, available
at
http://EmpowermentZone.com/netsetup.exe
Cheers,
Jamal
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 11:33 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
Hi Jamal: Did you download the compiler or was it in one of the SDKs?
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <c@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
> Here is a version in Visual Basic .NET, which may also be written in a
> text editor.
>
> Module Program
> Sub Main()
> Console.WriteLine("Hello world")
> End Sub
> End Module
>
> Compile at the command line as follows:
>
> Vbc hello.vb
>
> Jamal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:41 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>
> Um how hard is this
>
> //myfile.c
> #include <stdlib.h>
> #include <stdio.h>
> Int main (int argc char *arv)
> {
> Printf ("hello world");
> Return (0);
> }
>
> Gcc myfile.c -o myfile
>
> There I just wrote a program that will compile in this email. I didn't
> need an ide I didn't need to drop buttons what I could focus on was the
> code.
> The problem is you are confusing learning to code with learning to
program
> applications. Sure I don't want to start my first full blown
application
> writing it at the command line creating the graphical widgets etc. I do
> how ever want to start with a simple step by step method. I could write
a
> simple program to take input in only a couple more lines of code and see
> the results instantly. If I get errors the errors would pop up
instantly
> you wouldn't have to hunt for the window they are in. In c variables
must
> be at the top of every code segment or {} section. In languages like VB
> and c++ and C# you can throw in variable declarations any where. Which
is
> easier to teach someone put your variables here or hey throw them any
> where and then try and hunt down where the error is?
>
> I could go on but I have had this argument with professors and at least
> held my own if not won from time to time. Its great if all you want to
do
> is make a sited person happy that they made a simple application but if
> you really trying to teach them to code and to continue to learn to code
> then you shouldn't lose them in the manusia before they understand what
> they are doing.
>
> Now I chalange you to teach me to write a visual basic application in
the
> next email you write to this list. Make it write a message to the
screen
> and do it from the IDE. See how many steps you have to explain.
>
>
>
>
> ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie
McBride
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>
> Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
> 1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
> 2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
> applications you're coding.
>
> It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
> learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once folks
> kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter &
instruct
> the computer to do what they want, then the next logical progression is
> something like C. But I think learning C initially is rather like what
my
> dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake Michigan in 62 degree
water
> over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not teach me to swim any better or
> any earlier, believe me.
>
> In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught
myself
> Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort patient
> visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because my crazy
> billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked well. That
is
> not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some formal
> programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself previously
stood
> me in very good stead for learning that.
>
> Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
> intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
> $.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.
>
> On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his
> degree
>> in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have
>> taught when he took hem. College is not all it's cracked up to be but
>> that is another argument.
>>
>> I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has
to.
> In
>> fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the
>> VS ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to so I had
>> to get
> out
>> of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do. Heck
>> for
> that
>> matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which
>> gets
> you
>> out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code. In fact you can
>> find
> a
>> few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>
>> Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if
>> it
> is
>> for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear...
>> A person needs to get a good University Education in Computer
>> Programming or
> a
>>
>> related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
>> Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help
>> on
> list
>>
>> with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for
>> learning
> to
>>
>> do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to
>> nubes is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of
>> solving business, engineering or technical problems into computer
>> code. That is where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill
>> is mastered then
> it
>> becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
>> solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done
>> the former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to
>> become a Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their
>> own I assume
> they
>>
>> are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right
>> mind would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional
>> Computer Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal
>> education - it just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or
>> two out there who did it that way but 99+ percent have taken
>> University Courses if they work in the field. Jes said he was working
>> on a project in VS IDE, having problems and the process I outlined
>> just touched bases with the things he needed to ensure he did, and did
>> correctly, to get his project up and running. The blurb about learning
>> Programming ie... IPO, was just to start the brain working in thinking
>> about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3 things that need to be done,
>> sigh, and even that is diferent in today's
> OOP
>> world.
>> Rick USA.
>> Message -----
>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
>> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out
>>> of college now days. They code by the drop button and create if
>>> statement method. Have you actually looked at Job listings. A
>>> person that learns to code the way you just laid out whether they be
>>> sited or blind will be the bottom of the barrel. Some jobs asks for
>>> Visual studio but a monkey can make a form and add an if statement to
>>> it to make a button do something.
>>> If
>>> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
>>> getting themselves where they can be put out by some new AI
>>> programming language that can make the forms straight from a design
>>> chart created by a secretary. That type of coding can be done by
>>> anyone.
>>>
>>> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
>>> person can create a half baked program with them. They did the same
>>> thing to
> the
>>> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that
>>> taught half baked electronics. Now I am not saying a good
>>> electronics person or a good coder can't come from the easy road what
>>> I am saying is it is much more unlikely that one will.
>>>
>>> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an
>>> assembled language you will understand what is going on. You
>>> shouldn't even worry about the GUI till you know how programs are
>>> logically put together and why.
>>> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram
> just
>>> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting
>>> slipperier and messier because we don't understand what is going on
>>> under the engine.
>>>
>>> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
>>> would be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how
>>> to deal with pointers, and understand what a register is because in
>>> the long run if you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog
>>> maker you will need that information and if you think you have become
>>> a coder by creating
> some
>>> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that
>>> job you are not even close to ready for.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>> RicksPlace
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>
>>> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we
>>> use to be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more
>>> complex in other
>>>
>>> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning
> curve.
>>> You
>>>
>>> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you
>>> will
> be
>>> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
>>> concert.
>>>
>>> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure
>>> JAWS, again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you
>>> can open the
>>>
>>> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly
> nothing
>>> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements.
>>> And,
> God
>>> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well,
>>> you will be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who
>>> get that far.
>>> You absolutely need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
>>> ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first
>>> Hello World
>>>
>>> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of
>>> the Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a
>>> textbox or 2 on
>>>
>>> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code
>>> for the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
>>> TextBoxes.
>>> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
>>> Visual
>>>
>>> Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does
>>> not have all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to
>>> start with. Once you
>>>
>>> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a
>>> user, Read Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input,
>>> you have the
> basic
>>> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input
>>> / Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB
>>> you
> are
>>> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you
>>> can pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up
>>> when the Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough -
>>> the tough
> ask
>>> questions on list and follow up with more work!
>>> Rick USA
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
>>> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just
>>> want to be
>>>
>>> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I
>>> get
> are
>>> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
>>> Thanks.
>>> Jes
>>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Change the world--1 deed at a time
> Jackie McBride
> Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org
> homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
> For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com
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