Re: Good resource for beginning programmers

  • From: "qubit" <lauraeaves@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 13:57:10 -0600

Hi Ty -- I am not sure about windows so take this with a grain of salt, but
it is true that an OS does have some protections, such as preventing writing 
to someone else's virtual memory, to guard against malware.  However a 
truely pathological C++ program can use pointers to do some interesting 
things with stack frames that will cause a lot of very strange behavior.
But no, it won't go outside the process's virtual space, fortunately.
And perhaps it varies with the OS.
Keep in mind though that a debugger is just a program, and needs to have the 
ability to control a process and therefore needs to be able to write to 
addresses that are otherwise protected.
I particularly enjoyed debugger development when I was working in language 
support.  It is fascinating to me to see how a process is implemented.
--le

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers


You're making c++ sound way way to dangerous. If you mess up with a
pointer, unless you're programming at a way way low level and directly
accessing the harddrive, you're not going to trash anything. You have
access to memory, but like I said before when you went off on this "c++
can blow up the world," thing, the OS protects programmers from
themselves. Or sort of, anyway.
On 11/17/2010 6:20 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
> Good lord, no!  php might be written in c++ but, I promise you that
> you can not do the same things.  Php won't have stuff like template
> metaprogramming, generic programming nor will it compile right down to
> binary like c++.  If you write stuff in c++, it runs lightning fast.
> I don't know the syntax to php but, I'm pretty sure it's too different
> from c++ to be concsidered a dialect.  Python is definitely nothing
> like c in its syntax.  And, you could never program a driver in
> Python.  It would take forever if it runs at all.  They are not
> dialects of the languages they are written in.  I wish someone who was
> a bonified computer scientist could jump in and explain this in terms
> more fitting.  Scripting languages are used primarily for tweaking.
> Look at the Jaws scripting language, for instance.  Languages like
> Python and lua are used to customize applicatiosn written in stuff
> like c++ so that they don't have to rewrite the whole app and
> recompile it just for a few modifications.  It's hard to explain.
> Honestly, you will just have to do some research until you find
> something that explains it to you in a way that will make sense to
> you.
>
> Yes, the lines between some scripting languages and programming
> languages are becoming blurred but the great yawning chasm that will
> never be crossed is still the interpreted versus compiled chasm.  You
> might technically be able to write an application from the ground up
> in pure Python but, I promise you that if that thing goes toe to toe
> with another version of the same application written in c++, it will
> lose every time.  By the time the Python app is done printing out its
> welcome message, the c++ app has done what was asked of it and closed.
>   This is because there are too many layers between the app and the
> binary code for it.  It's first got to go through the interpreter
> which then puts it into binary.  The app written in c++ runs right on
> the system itself.  You have to go to something like c or asm to get
> lower level.  The isntructions to the computer don't have to be
> translated before execution.  The day when what you mention with
> regard to making something like c++ available to the nonprogrammer is
> way way far off in the future if it will ever come.  I frandkly hope
> it doesn't  The thought of some nonprogrammers I know with acces to
> that kind of computing power is frightening.  I mean, you can tell the
> computer exactly what to do right down to what goes where in each
> individual piece of memory.  There are no shortcuts in that language.
> And, there shouldn't be.  It gives you so many chances to shoot
> yourself in the foot that if you aren't down in the inner workings of
> it, as it were, under the proverbial hood, you won't be able to
> control what it does.  You could realistically totally trash a hard
> drive if you screw up just right with pointers and if you do something
> like overflowing an array of 10 items with say 100 or something like
> that.  I hear you can do some serious damage with stuff like that.
> Can't see that kind of damage being caused by php or python.
>
> Alex M
>
> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>> Hi-
>> Thank you for that explanation.
>> Seems like the line between programming and scripting languages is 
>> getting
>> blurred.
>> Are scripting languages becoming as powerful as a programming language? 
>> Or
>> do they just bring the best out of the programming language they are 
>> written
>> in.
>> If PHP and Python are written in C and C++, then why can't they make PHP 
>> and
>> Python to be more like a CMS and useable by non-programmers?
>> In summary, if I have this correct, a scripting language is actually 
>> written
>> in a programming language and is just a way of accessing and using the 
>> given
>> programming language.
>> When I use PHP and Python, I am actually using C and C++, just in a 
>> unique
>> dialect?  That is assuming Python and PHP are written in C or C++.
>> So somehow, PHP and Python were supposed to make C or what ever 
>> programming
>> language easier to use?
>> Is this accurate?
>> Sorry for the dumb questions.
>>
>> H.R. Soltani
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Christopher
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 6:24 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>
>> This is one of my pet peeves.
>>
>> A programming language is a language that is, in the majority of the
>> cases, compiled to native machine code -and- used for application
>> development (i.e. C, C++, D) A scripting language is a language that is,
>> in the majority of the cases, interpreted -and- used to control
>> applications, and sometimes application development in general (i.e.
>> Python, PHP, Ruby, AutoIT, etc.) Java was not a true programming
>> language until recently when it decided to compile its bytecode
>> on-the-fly. C# has always been a programming language because it has
>> always compiled its MSIL on-the-fly. PHP and Python are both written in
>> C and are both interpreted. (PHP might be written in C++.)
>>
>> I refuse to call a non-compiled language a programming language,
>> regardless of the language.
>>
>> So, here is a simple test to see what is a programming language and what
>> is a scripting language.
>>
>> 1. Can you write a full application in the language? If yes, then is the
>> language compiled? If yes, then it is a programming language.
>> 2. Can you write a full application in the language? If yes, then is the
>> language compiled? If no, then it is a scripting language.
>> 3. Can you write a full application in the language? If no, then it is a
>> scripting language.
>>
>>
>> On 11/17/2010 2:24 PM, Alex Midence wrote:
>>> I am not at a stage in my learning where I can do well at explaining
>>> this so, I have provided some links for you to explore:
>>>
>>> Scripting language
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language
>>>
>>> Programming language:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language
>>>
>>> Be warned:  This will create more questions for you.  Have fun!!!
>>>
>>> Alex M
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>> Hi-
>>>> What is the difference between a scripting language and a programming
>>>> language?
>>>> So if PHP and Python are scripting languages, what programming language
>> are
>>>> they written in?
>>>> And why are they called scripting languages?
>>>>
>>>> H.R. Soltani
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex 
>>>> Midence
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 3:52 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Good resource for beginning programmers
>>>>
>>>> You've got scripting languages and programming languages there.
>>>> Javascript is client side scripting.  Websites run scripts on the
>>>> visitor's machine to dynamically change themselves according to
>>>> stimuli.  Php is a scripting language that does dynamic webpage
>>>> changing among other things from the server side.  It is used in
>>>> conjunction with database solutions like my sql and the like.  Java
>>>> and C are both programming languages.  Java is a high level
>>>> object-oriented language that runs on a virtual machine.  It is used
>>>> to create applets and web apps for all sorts of functions.  Java is
>>>> also used to create desktop  applicaitons like, for instance, Eclipse,
>>>> Open Office, and things of that nature.  C is a low-level procedural
>>>> programming language that is used for desktop aplications and
>>>> low-level programming such as drivers, utilities and the like.
>>>> Certain platforms are also written in C like, for instance, Windoes is
>>>> in C.  I believe Gnome was also written in C.  I went into this detail
>>>> because your post indicated that you thought these were all web
>>>> development languages and they are not.  Python is a scripting
>>>> language that can do a lot of the same things programming languages
>>>> can do and has a reputation for being easy to learn and fostering
>>>> rapid development.  An applications that php could not create, IMHO is
>>>> a screen reader.  Python was used to create two of them.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>> Alex M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/17/10, Client Services<operations@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>   wrote:
>>>>> Hi everybody-
>>>>> I am trying to decide where to start as far as learning programming.
>>>>> I decided I would focus on 1. PHP, 2. JavaScript, 3. Java, 4. C
>>>>> I figured these are being used the most in web development and custom
>>>>> applications. So, where does Python come in?  How would you compare
>> Python
>>>>> with Java, PHP, and C??
>>>>> Can anybody give me an example of what cannot be developed in PHP 
>>>>> which
>>>> can
>>>>> be developed in Python?
>>>>> Or how about Java vs Python if PHP is to lowly?  I have just heard PHP
>> has
>>>>> limitations.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> H.R. Soltani
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-- 

Thanks,
Ty

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