Hi and thanks Dave: I am not looking for a job just now but may in the future. On another list there was a fellow who worked for a company and hired 2 blind Programmers to work under him. He gave them some training as they went along and they made and saved a few bucks as well as got some work experience for their resumes. Both are now engaged in Formal Education. One fellow over in India is finishing his Masters Degree after having worked for some time over there thanks to his experience gained under the blind fellow who gave him a chance here in the U.S. where he was able to work from home. The other fellow lives in Florida and is finishing a Undergrad Degree from a University down there and is getting quite good at programming. Because of him there are, or soon will be, 2 more blind Professional Programmers employed hopefully making a good Middle Class salary for themselves and their families. Well, thanks again Dave. Let me know what company you work for, off list if you want my address is below, just interested.
ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx Later and thanks again Dave: Rick USA----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
Hey Rick, Not Dale, but I do work at a major corp; if anyone wants to pass me a resume, I'd be glad to pass it along to my employer and give you some constructive feedback offline. On 2/17/11, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Well Dale, I have not seen you advertise for Programmers on list so far... You said you are hiring so why not look here? There are plenty of candidateswith a background in computers on list if you have any openings.I am sure some of them would like to work for a major corporation. By theway, which Company are you hiring for? Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6The entire discussion is useless from the outset.Education is simply learning from the experiences of others without havingto experience it oneself. You teach, I learn. I become educated through your teaching, through your experience.there are other properties, when someone presents with a recognized degreeof education I can anticipate a certain amount of knowledge, skill andvalue. I have a lot more trouble evaluating the same of one with no degreeof education. I also know the possessor of that accomplished degree of education has begun and completed at least that project. When I graduated from a Health Discipline a wise instructor advised methat I now had the knowledge to really begin learning and that was perhapsthe best advice I was given, not to assume I now knew all I would ever need, that learning is a life long endevour. Gaining employment, getting a job is a very different thing and requiresanother parallel skill set entirely. It isn't just about having the skillset or ability to do the job regardless of how one feels about the fairness of that, when people hire they are also looking for a character and personality fit. This is one reason why connections make such a difference. I already know if I enjoy someone's company or can't abide being within a hundred feet of them. There are craftsmen I won't have in my home by reputation without even knowing about their skill level. Is that fair? Well it is to me and I am hiring. Dale leavens. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 9:44 AM Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6If there is one thing growing up in the U.S. has taught me it is to never underestimate the self-made or self-taught man. This place's history is full of people who did amazing things with technology, business and sheer self improvement though they had no formal education as the people of their time saw it. I'll give you three examples which should be familiar to everyone around the world: Thomas Edison: First person to figure out how to record sound. His voice was the very first recorded. You can hear it on project gutenberg. He also invented the electric lightbulb and many many other things. Henry Ford: He figured out how to make assembly lines work and how to get the automobile priced low enough for regular people to buy. The scientists who invented it couldn't do that. I don't know what Mr. Mercedes first name was but the other fellow was Karl Benz. My German teacher was keen to point this out to us. Henry Ford never made it out of high school. He was called ignorant by the university elites of his day, took exception and sued them. He was able to prove that what you could do mattered more than what you knew. Andrew Carneggie: This man became a very wealthy man though he started out with nothing in the way of education or finances. I'll let you google him to learn his story. I don't know off the top of my head but, does anyone know if Bill Gates has a computer science degree? He dropped out of college and founded a little company called Microsoft you may have heard of. Trouble is, this is a very old argument that has been going on since longer than there have been computers. On one side you ahve the university types who put in long hard years and lots of money into going to college and got their degree. On the other you have the self-taught person who learned everything they know through trial and error and through constant self study. They often reinvent the wheel because they are unaware of its existence and take longer at times than the same person who goes to college to learn a few things. The first fellow feels threatened by the second and somehow cheated that the self-taught man didn't "Pay his dues," and go to a college like he did. The second fellow sees the first one as having an unfair advantage because he might know something he doesn't but he doesn't have that piece of paper to prove that he is worth anything and that he knows anything. he has solved problems through sheer stubborness that the first fellow blithely jotted down during class and promptly forgot and then dredges up from memory all rusted and full of holes that manifest themselves as mistakes the self-taught man would not make because experience has taught him to avoid them. On the other hand, the university fellow can pull from his formal training when new things come along which the first one hasn't experienced yet because he has a more theoretical background and he can adapt more quickly because of it. Both men have value. Both are a gamble though the first one is not as obvious as the second. I don't think this argument will ever be won as long as there are those willing to self teach and those with the wherewithal to attend a formal university. It's always interesting to see it manifest itself in different disciplines. Talk to a senior NCO some time about fresh minted officers one third their age and you'll get a very picturesque version of it. There's a man I know who is an ex marine first sergeant. What he says about officers is ... entertaining. Regards, Alex M On 2/17/11, Jacques Bosch <jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi Rick. To be fair you have to give the guy without the degree 4 years of experience. <smile>I think you guys are hearing what I am not saying. I can't even rememberhow we got hear any more. I am not promoting the idea of not aspiring to a formal education. I am just saying that it is possible the other way also, and a lot of passion and hard work.In the end of the day it comes down to whether somebody can get the jobdone, get it done in the right way for any given environment. And yes, universities can give you a good push in the right direction, however, it boils right down to the individual in the end.Something interesting that I experienced in the software company where Iwas part owner;Over a period of 2 years we had to fill several positions. We must haveinterviewed about 30 candidates in total. What really got to us where thesepeople fresh out of university with their degrees that thought they werethe big answer, and then they totally and utterly crash in the practical testwhich was a very simple program. They had to write a console applicationin their language of choice, when given a root folder, to list the nestedfolder structure below it. We did not tell them to use recursion. (Wait, eventually we did start telling them after they made no headway, but itdidn't help any).Before we realized the power of the practical test to separate those whohad a clue from those who did not, we appointed 2 guys with formal degrees from respected universities. The one guy had a good attitude, but was virtually useless in terms of any productivity for the next 18 months because he had to learn how things worked in the real world. The other guys was an absolute disaster. He actually had the degree and several years experience, and was extremely smooth and knowledgeable sounding in the interview, and wasappointed as a senior developer, but was the worst thing we ever did inthecompany. He was clueless, had a bad attitude, but expected all the duesof a "senior" position. There were two other guys, that did not have a degree. The 1 had a 1 year diploma, and the other had nothing. These were the two that really shined,and besides me and my partner, they made the company work. They were the "junior" developers, but blew the other two out of the water. They endedup doing / redoing the "senior" guys work. Again, this is just experience and not an argument against getting a formaleducation. But if I ever hire again, I will make damn sure that I am not conned by the implied competence of a degree, but that the person really does know the first thing about software engineering in the real world.I'd rather take somebody that has the aptitude, and good attitude, withoutthe degree, and mentor them on the job, than somebody who has a degree,and think they know everything, and have to teach them just as much. All other things being equal though, I would take the person with the degree. <smile> Jacques On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:51 AM, The Elf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:*sigh*I disagree with your assessment of visual ability and past capabilitiesand choice of GUI or console programming.also that is not the only place and way to learn, I have some resourcesand a site that it's original use was for blind programmers, Jamal Mazrui has a site devoted to this topic, etc. my sight is the grab bag site listed under my name below, and Jamal's is: www.NonvisualDevelopment.org I do grant that you should go to VB.net or better C#.net so your starting out in a current language, and either the vb.net 2008 will work good, and I hear that 2010 does work with a few more difficulties. HTH, elf Moderator, Blind Access Help Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized computers and peripherals - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn! www.alacorncomputer.com proprietor, The Grab Bag, for blind computer users and programmers http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com----- Original Message ----- From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490,1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:31 AM Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6 There may not be enough money to use and learn dot net. Fortunately,mono can be installed and will run on Windows as well as Linux and theprice tag is $0.00. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:28 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6 No, not without knowing your visual status. If you have memory ofhaving had vision or better yet have a little useable vision your best bet would be to learn the language with windows forms. If you have nomemory of vision, then your best bet would be to learn the language using the console interface, and these are two completely different paths. -----Original Message----- From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Otis D BlueSent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:22 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Getting started learning VB6 Hi, Could someone suggest where I can go to learn how to use VB as a beginner?I would like to get the understanding of the language and how to createsoftware with it. Otis Blue Join Blind-entrepreneurs by subscribing at blind-entrepreneurs-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rules for the list is simple.Be respectful to everyone and no fial language. It's ok to post usefulinformation to the list that will benefit other users. The list is mainlyfor discussion of business and owning a business. Everyone is welcometo join and learn about opening a business. Accessible software that's beendeveloped by yourself or something you had made can be sold on the listif it's going to benefit other business owners. Other than that, Thanks for joining the Blind-Entrepreneurs group. __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind __________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind-- Jacques Bosch Software Architecture and Development Independent Contractor Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726 E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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