Re: Getting started learning VB6

  • From: Dave <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 17:02:32 -0800

Hey Rick,  Not Dale, but I do work at a major corp; if anyone wants to
pass me a resume, I'd be glad to pass it along to my employer and give
you some constructive feedback offline.


On 2/17/11, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Well Dale, I have not seen you advertise for Programmers on list so far...
> You said you are hiring so why not look here? There are plenty of candidates
> with a background in computers on list if you have any openings.
> I am sure some of them would like to work for a major corporation.  By the
> way, which Company are you hiring for?
> Rick USA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>
>
>> The entire discussion is useless from the outset.
>>
>> Education is simply learning from the experiences of others without having
>>
>> to experience it oneself. You teach, I learn. I become educated through
>> your teaching, through your experience.
>>
>> there are other properties, when someone presents with a recognized degree
>>
>> of education I can anticipate a certain amount of knowledge, skill and
>> value. I have a lot more trouble evaluating the same of one with no degree
>>
>> of education. I also know the possessor of that accomplished degree of
>> education has begun and completed at least that project.
>>
>> When I graduated from a Health Discipline a wise instructor advised me
>> that I now had the knowledge to really begin learning and that was perhaps
>>
>> the best advice I was given, not to assume I now knew all I would ever
>> need, that learning is a life long endevour.
>>
>> Gaining employment, getting a job is a very different thing and requires
>> another parallel skill set entirely. It isn't just about having the skill
>> set or ability to do the job regardless of how one feels about the
>> fairness of that, when people hire they are also looking for a character
>> and personality fit. This is one reason why connections make such a
>> difference. I already know if I enjoy someone's company or can't abide
>> being within a hundred feet of them. There are craftsmen I won't have in
>> my home by reputation without even knowing about their skill level. Is
>> that fair? Well it is to me and I am hiring.
>>
>> Dale leavens.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 9:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6
>>
>>
>>> If there is one thing growing up in the U.S. has taught me it is to
>>> never underestimate the self-made or self-taught man.  This place's
>>> history  is full of people who did amazing things with technology,
>>> business and sheer self improvement though they had no formal
>>> education as the people of their time saw it.  I'll give you three
>>> examples which should be familiar to everyone around the world:
>>>
>>> Thomas Edison:  First person to figure out how to record sound.  His
>>> voice was the very first recorded.  You can hear it on project
>>> gutenberg.  He also invented the electric lightbulb and many many
>>> other things.
>>>
>>> Henry Ford:  He figured out how to make assembly lines work and how to
>>> get the automobile priced low enough for regular people to buy.  The
>>> scientists who invented it couldn't do that.  I don't know what Mr.
>>> Mercedes first name was but the other fellow was Karl Benz.  My German
>>> teacher was keen to point this out to us.  Henry Ford  never made it
>>> out of high school.  He was called ignorant by the university elites
>>> of his day, took exception and sued them.  He was able to prove that
>>> what you could do mattered more than what you knew.
>>> Andrew Carneggie:  This man became a very wealthy man though he
>>> started out with nothing in the way of education or finances.  I'll
>>> let you google him to learn his story.
>>> I don't know off the top of my head but, does anyone know if Bill
>>> Gates has a computer science degree?  He dropped out of college and
>>> founded a little company called Microsoft you may have heard of.
>>>
>>> Trouble is, this is a very old argument that has been going on since
>>> longer than there have been computers.  On one side you ahve the
>>> university types who put in long hard years and lots of money into
>>> going to college and got their degree.  On the other you have the
>>> self-taught person who learned everything they know through trial and
>>> error and through constant self study.  They often reinvent the wheel
>>> because they are unaware of its existence and take longer at times
>>> than the same person who goes to college to learn a few things.  The
>>> first fellow feels threatened by the second and somehow cheated that
>>> the self-taught man didn't "Pay his dues," and go to a college like he
>>> did.  The second fellow sees the first one as having an unfair
>>> advantage because he might know something he doesn't but he doesn't
>>> have that piece of paper to prove that he is worth anything and that
>>> he knows anything.  he has solved problems through sheer stubborness
>>> that the first fellow blithely jotted down during class and promptly
>>> forgot and then dredges up from memory all rusted and full of holes
>>> that manifest themselves as mistakes the self-taught man would not
>>> make because experience has taught him to avoid them.  On the other
>>> hand, the university fellow can pull from his formal training when new
>>> things come along which the first one hasn't experienced yet because
>>> he has a more theoretical background and he can adapt more quickly
>>> because of it.
>>>
>>> Both men have value.  Both are a gamble though the first one is not as
>>> obvious as the second.  I don't think this argument will ever be won
>>> as long as there are those willing to self teach and those with the
>>> wherewithal to attend a formal university.  It's always interesting to
>>> see it manifest itself in different disciplines.  Talk to a senior NCO
>>> some time about fresh minted officers one third their age and you'll
>>> get a very picturesque version of it.  There's a man I know who is an
>>> ex marine first sergeant.  What he says about officers is ...
>>> entertaining.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alex M
>>>
>>> On 2/17/11, Jacques Bosch <jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> Hi Rick.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair you have to give the guy without the degree 4 years of
>>>> experience. <smile>
>>>> I think you guys are hearing what I am not saying. I can't even remember
>>>>
>>>> how
>>>> we got hear any more. I am not promoting the idea of not aspiring to a
>>>> formal education. I am just saying that it is possible the other way
>>>> also,
>>>> and a lot of passion and hard work.
>>>> In the end of the day it comes down to whether somebody can get the job
>>>> done, get it done in the right way for any given environment. And yes,
>>>> universities can give you a good push in the right direction, however,
>>>> it
>>>> boils right down to the individual in the end.
>>>>
>>>> Something interesting that I experienced in the software company where I
>>>>
>>>> was
>>>> part owner;
>>>> Over a period of 2 years we had to fill several positions. We must have
>>>> interviewed about 30 candidates in total. What really got to us where
>>>> these
>>>> people fresh out of university with their degrees that thought they were
>>>>
>>>> the
>>>> big answer, and then they totally and utterly crash in the practical
>>>> test
>>>> which was a very simple program. They had to write a console application
>>>>
>>>> in
>>>> their language of choice, when given a root folder, to list the nested
>>>> folder structure below it. We did not tell them to use recursion. (Wait,
>>>> eventually we did start telling them after they made no headway, but it
>>>> didn't help any).
>>>> Before we realized the power of the practical test to separate those who
>>>>
>>>> had
>>>> a clue from those who did not, we appointed 2 guys with formal degrees
>>>> from
>>>> respected universities. The one guy had a good attitude, but was
>>>> virtually
>>>> useless in terms of any productivity for the next 18 months because he
>>>> had
>>>> to learn how things worked in the real world. The other guys was an
>>>> absolute
>>>> disaster. He actually had the degree and several years experience, and
>>>> was
>>>> extremely smooth and knowledgeable sounding in the interview, and was
>>>> appointed as a senior developer, but was the worst thing we ever did in
>>>> the
>>>> company. He was clueless, had a bad attitude, but expected all the dues
>>>> of a
>>>> "senior" position.
>>>> There were two other guys, that did not have a degree. The 1 had a 1
>>>> year
>>>> diploma, and the other had nothing. These were the two that really
>>>> shined,
>>>> and besides me and my partner, they made the company work. They were the
>>>> "junior" developers, but blew the other two out of the water. They ended
>>>>
>>>> up
>>>> doing / redoing the "senior" guys work.
>>>>
>>>> Again, this is just experience and not an argument against getting a
>>>> formal
>>>> education. But if I ever hire again, I will make damn sure that I am not
>>>> conned by the implied competence of a degree, but that the person really
>>>> does know the first thing about software engineering in the real world.
>>>> I'd rather take somebody that has the aptitude, and good attitude,
>>>> without
>>>> the degree, and mentor them on the job, than somebody who has a degree,
>>>> and
>>>> think they know everything, and have to teach them just as much.
>>>> All other things being equal though, I would take the person with the
>>>> degree. <smile>
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:51 AM, The Elf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> *sigh*
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree with your assessment of visual ability and past capabilities
>>>>> and
>>>>> choice of GUI or console programming.
>>>>>
>>>>> also that is not the only place and way to learn, I have some resources
>>>>> and
>>>>> a site that it's original use was for blind programmers, Jamal Mazrui
>>>>> has
>>>>> a
>>>>> site devoted to this topic, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> my sight is the grab bag site listed under my name below, and Jamal's
>>>>> is:
>>>>> www.NonvisualDevelopment.org
>>>>>
>>>>> I do grant that you should go to VB.net or better C#.net so your
>>>>> starting
>>>>> out in a current language, and either the vb.net 2008 will work good,
>>>>> and
>>>>> I hear that 2010 does work with a few more difficulties.
>>>>>
>>>>> HTH,
>>>>>
>>>>> elf
>>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>>>>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490,
>>>>> 1,
>>>>> 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:31 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There may not be enough money to use and learn dot net.  Fortunately,
>>>>> mono can be installed and will run on Windows as well as Linux and the
>>>>> price tag is $0.00.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
>>>>> Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:28
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6
>>>>>
>>>>> No, not without knowing your visual status.  If you have memory of
>>>>> having had vision or better yet have a little useable vision your best
>>>>> bet would be to learn the language with windows forms.  If you have no
>>>>> memory of vision, then your best bet would be to learn the language
>>>>> using the console interface, and these are two completely different
>>>>> paths.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Otis D Blue
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:22
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Getting started learning VB6
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Could someone suggest where I can go to learn how to use VB as a
>>>>> beginner?
>>>>> I would like to get the understanding of the language and how to create
>>>>> software with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Otis Blue
>>>>>
>>>>> Join Blind-entrepreneurs by subscribing at
>>>>> blind-entrepreneurs-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Rules for the list is simple.
>>>>> Be respectful to everyone and no fial language.  It's ok to post useful
>>>>> information to the list that will benefit other users.  The list is
>>>>> mainly
>>>>> for discussion of business and owning a business.  Everyone is welcome
>>>>> to
>>>>> join and learn about opening a business.  Accessible software that's
>>>>> been
>>>>> developed by yourself or something you had made can be sold on the list
>>>>> if
>>>>> it's going to benefit other business owners.  Other than that, Thanks
>>>>> for
>>>>> joining the Blind-Entrepreneurs group.
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Jacques Bosch
>>>>
>>>> Software Architecture and Development
>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>> Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726
>>>> E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>> __________
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>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>>>
>>
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