Re: Getting started learning VB6

  • From: "RicksPlace" <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 10:27:00 -0500

Ya Jim: I have been out of the business for more years than many listers have 
been alive - grin! That said, it never changes. 
There is a quantum diference between writing programs and professionally 
competing with others in that field.
I thought the original lister was asking about just learning to write programs 
- not learning to become a Pro in the field. 
No, there is no way I would recommend learning this stuff on one's own without 
some formal education and then trying to compete in today's market - that just 
sounds foolish to me. 
If anyone wants to learn to program - great! There are tutorials out there for 
many languages and a person could get quite good working with them on their 
own. That is a whole diferent planet than becomming a Professional Programmer 
at CISCO, IBM, SI, GE or any other major company where you can make real money 
and have some job security if lucky and good at what you do.
By the way, if I ever want to get back into the business I'll call you old 
buddy, pal, guru, great leader of men... Grin... Glad you are doing things to 
help out. I have not heard from others in various companies or government often 
post up jobs for list members who learned on their own without a solid formal 
education. I may just have missed those postings over the past 5 or six years 
though.
  Rick USA
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 10:01 AM
  Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6


  Hi Rick,

  Your assessment is correct in my view. I work for a company that recruits and 
hires people with disabilities. We do all we can to help people with 
disabilities get jobs. These are routinely requirements that our customers look 
for. We look at whether the person is qualified to do the job first, and the 
disability second, but qualifications must come first, or no-one wins. We 
simply can't hire anyone just because they have a disability. That would not 
help anyone. It wouldn't help them. It wouldn't help us or our customer. We all 
know that feeling sorry for ourselves does nothing but hold us back. 

   

  I try to do what I can to help fellow people who are blind get hired. We've 
hired several people who are blind who have gone on and done very well in the 
corporate world, but we couldn't have hired them if they weren't already 
qualified. And qualified means what the industry says is qualified, no matter 
how much I jump up and down and scream. I just need to get over it and get 
qualified. Do I want the job more than I want to complain? 

   

  Bottom line: Spend your energy on getting qualified as a coder, as an 
adaptive technology user, and learn to dress professionally, take care of your 
hygiene, act courteously and prefessionally in social situations, have good 
table manners, Smile even when you don't feel like it, have a nice, firm 
handshake, face the person you are talking to, keep complaints as much to a 
minimum as possible, be positive, and so on, and you should do OK. And if you 
need to vent here and there, I'm a good listener. <grin>

   

  Jim

   

   

  Jim Homme,

  Usability Services,

  Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme

  Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. 
Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice

   

  From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
  Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:20 AM
  To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6

   

  Hi: OK, lets play a game. You are the manager of a Human Resources Department 
at some company like IBM, GM or another Company or Government Agency.
  You have one job opening for a Computer Programmer. The job requires 
demonstrated skills inProgramming in Visual Studio using Sql Server in a 
Distributed Network environment. The applicant will be developing and 
maintaining a new Accounting System for the company and there will be 25 other 
Programmers on the project so you will be working with advanced Design Tools, 
Testing Systems such as some Unit Testing software and advanced UML or other 
tools. Now, Mr Human Resource Manager... here are 2 applicants for this job 
that starts at $50,000 per year.
  First Applicant:
  I have a High School education but learned to write computer programs on my 
own over the past 2 years at home in my spare time. I have coded a checkbook 
balancing program using VB.net and CSharp. I Have managed to use Sql Server 
Express as the Database. I have coded my project using Notepad but not worked 
in Visual Studio much yet although I feel confident I can learn to work around 
any accessibility issues and learn to be productive in that Enterprise Level 
IDE environment.  For these reasons I feel quite qualified to help develop your 
International Acounting System in the Distributed Enterprise Level Environment 
you have described and feel I am the best person for the job. 
  Second Applicant for same job:
  I have a BS in Computer Science with a Minor in Business Administration and 
Accounting. I have 2 years experience in Computer Programming using Enterprise 
Level Visual Studio and other Third Party Products. 

  My Formal Education included several Programming Languages includeing VB.net 
and CSharp working in a Distributed Enterprise Level Visual Studio Environment. 

  It also included using various File Management tools and Productivity tools 
such as Sql Server, various Sequential and Skip Sequential file management 
tools  and several other Programming languages such as JAVA and various 
Distributed Networking Languages and Networking Management tools. I have also 
worked in a International Distributed Enterprise level environment working for 
JP Morgan.Along with my classes in using advanced tools such as Unit Testing 
software, Enterprise Edition Project management tools, UML and advanced 
training in Modular Design and various communications interfaces with 
Mainframes, I have practical experience using these tools while with JP Morgan. 
  I have several references from my University Instructors and JP Morgan 
Management regarding my qualifications for this job.
  For these reasons I feel quite qualified to help develop your International 
Acounting System in the Distributed Enterprise Level Environment you have 
described and feel I am the best person for the job. 

  Now, Mr Human Resources Manager, after you interview perhaps another 50 or so 
applicants with the same or better credentials than the second candidate, 
exactly what chance of getting that $50,000 per year job do you think the 
first, blind, candidate has?
  If you would hire the first candidate you will not be the Human Resources 
Manager for long me thinks...
  The first candidate may be fine for the job but how will you know that? I 
would hire the person with 4 years education in Computer Science with a solid 
background in Communications, Programming, Math and all that jazz rather than a 
High Schooler with some background in home PCs. My family depends on my hiring 
the best candidate for the job and my best choice would be the second 
candidate, hands down.
  So, while it is cool to think of the luck of the draw in getting a job 
without a formal education it is not something I would recommend hanging your 
hat on. And, since my posts are about my recommendations, it is what it is and 
I recommend a formal education. If you can't handle a University Level program 
you will not be able to handle working in this field at any Professional Level 
unless you are very, very lucky. So, my recommendation remains... If you want 
to learn to program you can do it starting out with any simple programming 
language, perhaps vbscript or something simple and then moving into VB.net or 
CSharp either inside the IDE or just using the command line option as mentioned 
in prior posts. If you want to become a Professional, bite the bullet and  
figure out some way to get some formal education..
  I don't know what else to say on this subject, that's all I have so I'll let 
it rest here. Others have other opinions but this is my opinion and I'm 
sticking to it. 
  Remember, it's not only the programming language you learn but the other 
classes in English, foreign languages, Math, Science and other fields like 
Business, engineering, Logic and a set of diverse Computer related classes that 
you will have to offer an employer over someone without a formal education and 
those things weigh heavy in any decission to hire someone. Without the logic 
learning of various Math and Grammer classes you will always be lacking in 
those skills. If you can learn them at all it will not take twice as long, it 
will take at least 10 times as long and likely much longer than that. 

  So that's all I have...

  Having been there, hiring advisor, this remains my opinion about a formal 
education versus AdHock learning without some level of post High School 
education...

  Getting a real, professional career is not a game of Space Invaders, it's a 
war and a formal education is your first line of weaponry. Go up against 
someone with superior weaponry and you are most likely to come out on the short 
end.

  Rick USA

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Kerneels Roos 

    To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

    Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 8:14 AM

    Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6

     

    I would always promote formal education. Information Technology is one 
field where you could get professional without formal education, but I think 
it's a much tougher road and it will probably take you twice as long. Also, 
should you want to apply for a job where maths or a science background is 
required you be less appropriate than someone with a simple computer science 
degree.

    I would encourage anyone with an interest in Information Technology and a 
reasonable aptitude to try and study. It might open up a world to you that you 
never knew existed. I would also encourage experienced individuals without a 
formal education to investigate study options. A person with say 10 years 
programming experience could try do a Masters degree for example. In computer 
science they might just let you start there if you have a proven experience. 
Well, no matter what, any worth while university should give an experienced 
professional "discount" if you will, that will allow him or her to forgo some 
years of study. If they insist you start with Programming 101 the whole place / 
department isn't worth their weight in construction rubble.

    A degree is however not the be all and end all, it's just a kick start if 
you like. I really respect people that for one reason or another were not able 
to study but yet gained enough experience to be competant at what they do. What 
I don't like is when people without formal education feel threatened by people 
who did study and then forever poo poo any kind of accademical idea, or 
anything that is a bit more complicated.

    The same goes for formally qualified individuals who can't appreciate 
simplicity and forever want to complicate things -- a sort of accademical / 
intellectual snobbery. None of the above will help in the real world.

    Since I was so fortunate to have been able to study at one of our country's 
finest and world class universities, I'll end with a quote you brilliant 
self-taught professionals might appreciate; it's a quote one professor found, 
smiling back at him, on the very last page of long exam answer sheet:

    "Those who can, do. 
    Those who can't, teach."

    Kind regards,
    Kerneels


    On 2/16/2011 2:30 PM, Jacques Bosch wrote: 

    I must be an exception to the rule. :)
    But I am definitely not advocating that you shouldn't go for a formal 
education if at all possible. I was only sharing my story. But then I really 
did work very hard at it and have read very many books and articles over the 
last 12 years, and had some good input from prior colleagues.
    However, I know several good professionals that have similar stories here 
in SA.


    Jacques

    On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 2:18 PM, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

    Hi: There is just no substitute for a quality formal education. Ask the 
folks who run the Human Resources Department at any major company or government 
agency. Perhaps overseas this is diferent. I have found the education systems 
quite diferent here and abroad as well as the hiring practices. Here in the 
United States there is no question that you need some University level 
education if you want to get a job with a Major Company where you might be able 
to work for many years and make a living wage for your family.There always 
exceptions but they are very, very rare. 

    If you do not live in the U.S. or you think you can make a living 
contracting at world-wide competitive wages such as in India, Bangladesh, 
Romainia   or other Third World Developing countries then you can go for it. 
But, if you want a job with GM, Ford, BA, AAA, AA, MERC or any other major 
company or any Us or State or even Local Government agency you will need some 
level of formal education. Again there might be an exception to this, 
especially if you are blind, but it is not likely nor will you find any 
channels for professional advancement in your career. 

    Rick USA 

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Jacques Bosch 

      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 

      Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:48 AM

      Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6

       

      Well, in most cases, probably. But I still maintain, not in all.
      But, hey, that is just me and MHO :)

      On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 1:26 PM, John G <jglists0@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

      i think a clear distinction needs to be drawn between
      programming
      and
      engineering, the latter being a skill or a set of skills for which a 
formal training is essential. 



      At 11:12 16/02/2011, you wrote:

      Hi: If you are considering becoming a Professional, there is no 
substitute for a formal education at a quality University. If you get a degree 
from a good State  University you will have the logic, cognitive and other 
skills to become a professional programmer. That is not something you are 
likely to do on your own. Perhaps someone else has done it but in the field 
they will require at least a degree, 2 or 4 years, and they will prefer 
experience as well. You can get the degree from the school and perhaps some 
experience there as well through the Financial Aid Center or by volunteering to 
help or even tutor other students. Everything you can get to put on a resume is 
what you want and sitting in your paren'ts basement playing with your computer 
is not likely to give you much to put on a resume.
      Rick USA

      ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" 
<tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:51 PM
      Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6



      .net comes with compilers, as far as I know. the user could learn a 
worth-while language, while still learning to program. You will not find to 
many job opportunities around that use Libertybasic, if any, as well as the 
fact that you need to pay for Libertybasic, and it still has an IDE as well as 
a really whacked syntax you need to learn. I believe (and many schools seem to 
be thinking along the same lines as I am), that the OP would be fine learning 
something like that.
      On 2/15/2011 1:20 PM, RicksPlace wrote:

      Hi: Mono sounds nice but I would not recommend it for a raw beginner. 
Actually I would not recommend VB.net to a raw programming beginner. A true 
beginner needs a really simple platform like that provided by some simple 
scripting language or a easy to learn platform like Power Basic or Liberty 
Basic. The concepts of how to write a program by solving problems one step at a 
time and then coding one statement, one step, at a time will be daunting 
enough. Trying to learn to navigate the VS IDE on top of that is too much to 
expect from a totally raw beginner. What is a variable? What types of variables 
are there? How would you open a door one step at a time? How would you balance 
your checkbook one step at a time and use algebra symbols in the example 
solution along with If and End If statements. These are the things that a 
beginner needs to learn. The syntax of a language are secondary to learning how 
to perform problem solving using math symbols and then conditional statements 
and pseudo code and finally using the syntax of an English Like language. 
Anyway, I recommend that if the beginner does not have any programming 
experience he try vbscript, Liberty Basic or perhaps Power Basic or something 
along those lines to learn about using computer code to solve real world 
problems before tackling a productivity tool like VB.net or Visual Studio. 
There are e-lists dedicated to these easier languages and when I was learning I 
found those folks really helpful and willing to do some hand-holding while I 
learned about things.
      Perhaps learning to do some simple applications using VbScript would be a 
good way to learn about variables, loops and conditional statements. Then move 
up to try something like VB.net.
      That way he would just write some computer statements in a text editor, 
run them as a simple script and learn about the basic programming concepts 
without worrying about the complexity of the Vb.net IDE which can be daunting 
in and of itself.
      Rick USA.
      ----- Original Message ----- From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 
26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
      To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 1:08 PM
      Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6


      Mono differs from dot net in that version 2.0 of dot net and mono work
      together across several platforms.  Later versions of dot net are in the
      works for support on mono though.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield,
      Tyler
      Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:53
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: Re: Getting started learning VB6

      Mono is not the same as the .net framework. Just get the express edition

      and you're good. Also: if you are a student, you get vs 2010 free, and
      Microsoft also gives out vs 2010 ultimate to MSDNAA members.
      On 2/15/2011 9:31 AM, DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 wrote:

      There may not be enough money to use and learn dot net.  Fortunately,
      mono can be installed and will run on Windows as well as Linux and the
      price tag is $0.00.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of DaShiell,
      Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26
      Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:28
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: RE: Getting started learning VB6

      No, not without knowing your visual status.  If you have memory of
      having had vision or better yet have a little useable vision your best
      bet would be to learn the language with windows forms.  If you have no
      memory of vision, then your best bet would be to learn the language
      using the console interface, and these are two completely different
      paths.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Otis D

      Blue

      Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:22
      To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Subject: Getting started learning VB6

      Hi,

      Could someone suggest where I can go to learn how to use VB as a
      beginner?
      I would like to get the understanding of the language and how to

      create

      software with it.

      Otis Blue

      Join Blind-entrepreneurs by subscribing at
      blind-entrepreneurs-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      Rules for the list is simple.
      Be respectful to everyone and no fial language.  It's ok to post

      useful

      information to the list that will benefit other users.  The list is
      mainly
      for discussion of business and owning a business.  Everyone is welcome
      to
      join and learn about opening a business.  Accessible software that's
      been
      developed by yourself or something you had made can be sold on the

      list

      if
      it's going to benefit other business owners.  Other than that, Thanks
      for
      joining the Blind-Entrepreneurs group.


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      --

      Thanks,
      Ty

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      -- 

      Jacques Bosch 

      Software Architecture and Development
      Independent Contractor
      Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726
      E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx   




    -- 

    Jacques Bosch 

    Software Architecture and Development
    Independent Contractor
    Cell: +27 824711807 Fax: +27 86 504 4726
    E-Mail: jfbosch@xxxxxxxxx   





-- Kerneels RoosCell: +27 (0)82 309 1998Skype: cornelis.roos "There are only 
two kinds of programming languages in the world; those everyone complains 
about, and those nobody uses."

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