Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style

  • From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:41:32 +0300

ASP.net, just like ASP, is not a language, but an interface, like the standard CGI interface (mod_cgi Apache module), or other interfaces like fastcgi, mod_perl, mod_php, mod_ruby, mod_python, or the Java-based ones.


mod_perl, mod_cgi, mod_php, mod_ruby, mod_python are interfaces that can be used under Apache server. fastcgi can be used under Apache and many other Servers, and probably the CGI interface is the oldest and it can be used under most web servers.

ASP and ASP.net are proprietary interfaces and they are used under MS IIS. There were some trials of making asp accessible under Apache, and in fact the asp interface can be accessible under Apache, but with mod_perl support and perl as a language, and not C or VB like under IIS.

I understand why it is not very clear what is an interface and a language on the web. There are more levels and it is not very easy to understand why one is considered to be a language and one an interface, especially that all the web-based interfaces use the standard CGI interface for getting the requests from a web-based form. The difference is only the part of the interface that makes the link between the core of the web server and the programs that run on the web server, but that part is pretty hidden from the point of view of the programmer.

So the terms we are using are not so important.






Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style


Jamal,

I wasn't saying that asp.net was an extra component of VB and C#, what I meant is exactly the opposite, that it is a language unto itself, and though VB and C# can be deployed through it on a web site, or with it, depending on your view, a site using .net is built with asp.net and the others deploy through it, or as far as my understanding of such things stands.

I have a invisible set of links and header for projects in asp, and asp.net on my page, just awaiting someone to do up projects in them.

and yes I know that asp and asp.net are very different animals, smile.

inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style


FYI -- ASP.NET is a subset of the .NET Framework Class Library, so it is
not really an extra component for VBNeT or C# coding.  I think most
languages use specialized libraries for server-side programming, besides
PHP, so whether a language uses a particular library should not affect
its categorization, particularly if that library is freely available.

Although it is tempting to try to summarize and categorize each language
objectively, I think the most practical approach is probably just using
the initial paragraph used by that language's web site for the
description.  Naturally, that wording would be somewhat promotional in
nature, but it generally emphasizes what distinguishes that language from
others, offering reasons why someone should try it against competing
choices.  Such language could be quoted and a link included to the main
language site so it is clear that this is the source of information about
the language.  The sample programs would then provide tangible
illustrations of what the languages can do, so people can better judge
based on programs they can actually experience in source code and
executable form.

Jamal
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007, inthaneelf wrote:

Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:24:36 -0700
From: inthaneelf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style

there is a module for creating desktop applications with php, but the module is not accessible, so this is a problem with my having a application made in
it on the site.

and I think a compromise is due here!

I can go through and if I do not have an example for it in both, then I can
at least put a simple, marking of some sort, an alert so to say that the
language is used in both.

and the point that while as Jamal said, vb.net and c# can be used to make
stuff for asp.net, you still need asp.net to utilize them, so that one is a
combo, hmmmm, I can make a template like the one that is on the page now,
made invisible in html code, that has the format of a "used in both web and desktop programming" and have a space for additional notes there, this way the primary distinction is there, but the notes and additional uses are with
each language as well,.

respects,
inthane
. For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and Links
to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at:
http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
. to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming
languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style


> Ok, but in that case it should be made no distinction at all, it should > be > created a single section, and eventually specify for each program if it > is
> one for the desktop or one for the web.
>
> Otherwise, some programs won't be found because they are for the > desktop,
> but they are stored in the section with the programs for the web.
>
> But I still think that a distinction should be made, because the users
> should see that a certain language is better for the desktop or for the
> web if there are more programs for that environment, and they should > see
> that a certain language is not very much used for creating applications
> for a certain environment, like VB.net for the web for example.
>
> I think C++ could also print something to STDOUT, so it could be used > for
> creating programs for the web, and possibly assembly also. Maybe Visual
> Basic 6 can't be used normally.
> I heard that there is a project began that should allow to create > programs
> for the desktop with PHP also. But... how many programs for the desktop
> are made (if there are) with PHP, and how many programs are made with
> VB.net?
>
> The users should see how easy is to code in a certain language, and > also
> find out if that language is used by many programmers.
>
> That's why I said some time ago that anyone should come and create his > own > version of this program, no matter if there are other versions made in > a
> certain language.
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 1:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style
>
>
> I also appreciate Inthane's work on this, and suggest that the
> distinction between desktop and web languages is not sufficiently
> meaningful to be worth doing. Besides C++ and Assembler for the > desktop
> and PHP and JavaScript for the web, almost every other language is now
> commonly used for both desktop and web programs.  VBNET and C#, for
> example, are used to make web sites built with the ASP.NET classes.   I
> think the intent of the distinction was good, but in practical terms, > it
> is no longer a useful, top-level categorization in the project.
>
> Just my opinion after some reflection on this issue.
> Jamal
> On Sat, 13
> Oct 2007, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:45:35 +0300
>> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style
>>
>> I don't think you need to make 3 sections. You just need to make only >> 2.
>>
>> Thinking from the point of view of the beginner programmer that wants >> to
>> start learning a new language, I think that he or she might intend to
>> create
>> a certain kind of program.
>> Maybe the programmer doesn't know yet which would be the best >> language,
>> but
>> he or she knows for sure that wants to create a desktop program or a
>> program
>> for the web, so he will look in the section of sample programs for
>> desktop
>> or for the web.
>>
>> If I'd be in his place, I wouldn't choose a language that is not for >> the
>> desktop and not for the web, but that can do both, because I wouldn't
>> know
>> if I'll find samples for what I need in that third section.
>>
>> So, let's say I want to create a desktop program. Well, I'd look in >> the >> section of the languages that can be used for creating desktop >> programs.
>> But I wouldn't find perl there and this is not good.
>>
>> If you'll create a third section and I would want to make a program >> for
>> the
>> web, then maybe I will look in the Ruby example because I would see >> that
>> it
>> is for desktop and for the web, but I won't find a version for the web
>> there, so I won't trust that section anymore, so I'd look only in the
>> sections that clearly say that are only for the web or only for >> desktop.
>>
>> The fact that you added a word "mostly" in the explanation is >> absolutly
>> not
>> important because nobody would know what he would be able to find in >> that
>> section.
>>
>> I have seen that you organized the programming languages, but I don't
>> think
>> they are important here. The most important things are the sample
>> programs,
>> no matter the programming language.
>> If a beginner programmer will see and like the code of a certain >> program,
>> he
>> might want to learn the language that program is made in, no matter >> which
>> is
>> it, but this only if that program does what he wants.
>>
>> So the explanation of what the languages are good for is good, but >> should
>> be
>> accessible only after the code of the program.
>>
>> But anyway, you put some work in this site and we should thank you for
>> this.
>>
>> Even though I think it could be better, I can't recommend to make the
>> effort
>> and improve it, because.... (but this is just my opinion), I think >> that
>> it
>> not very helpful at all... for the moment.
>>
>> (Not because it is bad or less good, but because maybe the beginner
>> programmers start learning in a different way... who knows).
>>
>>
>> Octavian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 5:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style
>>
>>
>> > Octavian, this is why the header for the sections both say "mostly"
>> > this
>> > means that many of the languages can be used for both
>> >
>> > I did not wish to have to make three distinct sections, its >> > confusing
>> > enough, but I'll consider doing so.
>> >
>> > there, also, is a definition file for each language, which would >> > talk
>> > about this point as well.
>> >
>> > thanks again,
>> > inthane
>> > . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, >> > and >> > Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, >> > visit
>> > me
>> > at:
>> > http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>> > . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
>> > programming
>> > languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>> > http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:35 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style
>> >
>> >
>> >> Sorry but I think I didn't understand the question. I don't >> >> understand
>> >> what you mean by "idiomatic".
>> >>
>> >> And yes, I remember that the FruitBasket in Perl with Win32::GUI >> >> was
>> >> put
>> >> in the section of languages for the web, which is not correct, and >> >> I
>> >> already told that.
>> >>
>> >> FruitBasket versions in perl using Win32::GUI and WXPerl should be >> >> put
>> >> in
>> >> the section of languages for desktop programs, because in those
>> >> programs
>> >> perl is used as a desktop program, and FruitBasket made as a CGI
>> >> program
>> >> should be put in the section of languages for the web, because that
>> >> program is one for the web, just like the one made in Javascript.
>> >>
>> >> And one more thing, it is important to let the users know that perl
>> >> can
>> >> be used as a language for desktop programs and as a language for >> >> the
>> >> web
>> >> programs, while other languages cannot, or at least for the moment
>> >> there
>> >> are no FruitBasket demos made in those languages.
>> >>
>> >> Octavian
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Veli-Pekka Tätilä" <vtatila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 12:19 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: Fruitbasket in Perl and Win32::GUI, OO Style
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Hi Octavian,
>> >>> About the Win32::GUi version of Fruit Basket in Perl.
>> >>> Or maybe I simply missed it, since I only looked at the link names
>> >>> and
>> >>> read the info blurb mentioning Perl being a server side lang. How
>> >>> idiomatic code is that, by the way?
>> >>>
>> >>> I have a bad, in terms of maintenance, habit of trying to code as
>> >>> Perlishly and concisely I can. So one thing I've gottten lately >> >>> into
>> >>> OO
>> >>> Perl are initializing the fields of an object by assigning to a >> >>> hash
>> >>> slice. Like this (untested):
>> >>>
>> >>> @$object{qw|field1 field2|} = (3.14, 42); # whatever.
>> >>>
>> >>> In stead of using up two precious statements and the deref arrow.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> With kind regards Veli-Pekka Tätilä (vtatila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
>> >>> Accessibility, game music, synthesizers and programming:
>> >>> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila
>> >>>
>> >>> Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>> >>>> I sent a version made with Win32::GUI in perl, and one in perl as >> >>>> a
>> >>>> server
>> >>>> side language, but maybe they are lost...
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