Re: Fruit basket program in Boo

  • From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:53:26 +0300

No, I don't think that I am good enough to be able to write a good wrapper for WX.


I see that the guys that work for WXPerl or Win32::GUI have worked for years to make those wrappers, so it is not something very simple, while learning a new language is more simple.

But my problem is not that I find that it is hard to learn a new language. My problem with learning new languages is that I dislike an important part of each language.

For example I've tried to learn Java and SWT, but I've seen that SWT is a lower level GUI library than Win Forms, and it doesn't have so many controls available as Win Forms.

Win Forms is pretty nice, it works very well with C#, but the problem that C# is Windows centric. I make almost all my programs to run on a web server, and all the web servers I use in productions are under Linux.

Mono could be accessible under Linux, but I don't know if asp.net also works fine under a Linux web server, and I don't like the PHP style, so I might not like the asp.net style also.

If someone needs to create programs only for the web or only for the desktop, it is much easy to choose, but if somebody needs to create both, at least one of the solutions would be not the best possible.
(Maybe that's why asp.net has an increasing success)


Octavian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo


Have you looked at JSCRIPT .NET?  I did a fruit basket program at
http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/jn_fruit.zip

It has braces, semicolons, duck typing, an Eval method, and almost
complete access to the Framework Class Library, including WinForms.  An
exception is that it cannot call arbitrary Win32API functions (that are
not already wrapped by .NET classes).

Have you considered writing your own Perl wrappers for the Wx syntax
you dislike?  These are generally object constructors, as I
understand it, so it would not be much work to write a wrapper for
each control you found yourself wanting to use regularly.  I would
think that the time it took to write your own wrappers for the Wx
syntax you find annoying would be much less than the time to learn a
new language.

Jamal

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:55:45 +0300
From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo

Oh yes, (almost) nothing is impossible, but I prefer to do the smallest
possible effort when writing a code, and not some more effort just for
beeing able to use more languages.

If perl would be able to byte-compile the code and if there would be a
friendly GUI library which is accessible and supports UTF-8, (and not a bad programming interface library like WX), I would be using only perl, because it has very many advantages in the other fields, and it is very productive.

But it doesn't have those features, so that's why I need other languages
like C# or Java.

I don't like them very much because Java SWING is very slow and hard
accessible for the blind. SWT is better but it is not so good as Win Forms.
Win Forms is very good for some things, but it still requires using a
hard-typed code and I don't like that. Using a dynamic language with Win
Forms, like Perl.net, needs using a ugly syntax, and other languages like
the .net Python bindings require that ugly python indentation.

So unfortunately I can't choose what I like the best, because I need to
choose what I don't like the least. :-))

Octavian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo


>I don't think we're arguing that indentation is an advantage for a
> speech user (it can be for braille users). We're just saying that it > is
> not a show stopper as you sometimes portray it to be.  In other words,
> it can be a manageable challenge, particularly with screen reader or
> editor features that help.  A feature of TextPal and EdSharp, for
> example, is to navigate to the next change in indentation (forward or
> backward), which is similar to navigating to the next matching brace.
>
> Regards,
> Jamal
> On
> Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
>> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:19:22 +0300
>> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo
>>
>> Yes I know that, but how can this help me?
>> It could help me if I will hear that the indentation level is at 2 >> chars
>> and
>> if I would also remember that the indentation level should be 2 chars >> (or >> something else) because the code should allign with another part of >> the
>> code.
>>
>> But I don't use to remember the indentation level of other parts of >> the >> code, and I don't find it productive to need to go back or forward >> just
>> to
>> find the correct level of indentation I would need to use.
>>
>> It could be easier for the sighted to create blocks of code by using >> the
>> same indentation level, but for the blind it is not an advantage.
>>
>> Octavian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 2:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo
>>
>>
>> > Teddy,
>> > EdSharp tells you at what level the indent is. For example, if you >> > set
>> > it
>> > to indent your code two spaces, it will tell you that your code is
>> > indented
>> > at level 1. You can get JAWS to tell you anything you want when you >> > set
>> > up
>> > a sound scheme for it. I have mine set up to play piano notes at
>> > different
>> > indent levels because I have perfect pitch and can associate notes >> > with
>> > levels.
>> >
>> > Jim
>> >
>> > James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>> > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>> >
>> > "It's more important for me to start to do the right thing than it >> > is
>> > to
>> > wait until I think I
>> > can do it just right."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >             "Octavian
>> >             Rasnita"
>> >             <orasnita@xxxxxxx
>> > To
>> >             om>                       programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >             Sent by:
>> > cc
>> >             programmingblind-
>> >             bounce@freelists.
>> > Subject
>> > org Re: Fruit basket program in >> > Boo
>> >
>> >
>> >             10/21/2007 01:48
>> >             PM
>> >
>> >
>> >             Please respond to
>> >             programmingblind@
>> >               freelists.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes I know but that is not what I mean. I hear that the indentation >> > of
>> > a
>> > certain line is 3 chars, but I don't remember if it should be at 3
>> > chars
>> > or
>> >
>> > more, because I don't like to put Jaws to tell me automaticly that
>> > information, so I don't hear it by default for each line.
>> >
>> > If I would absolutely need that information, I could make the effort >> > of
>> > listening that information for each line, but it is not necessary at
>> > all.
>> >
>> > I can't say I can do something in Python or Boo that I cannot do in
>> > perl,
>> > so
>> > I don't need to make that effort.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, I can do something in C# that I can do in perl >> > much
>> > harder, and that's why the effort of learning C# could be necessary.
>> > (I can use WinForms in Perl.net, but the syntax is not nice at all, >> > and
>> > it
>> > is easier to use WinForms in C#).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Octavian
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "rrdinger" <rrdinger@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 6:34 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo
>> >
>> >
>> >> Just a quick point Teddy. You may not recall, but jaws will tell >> >> you
>> > what
>> >> indentation level if you do a SayLine command. That may help you >> >> if
>> >> you
>> >> can't remenber what indentation level you are at.
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:01 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>I know that even Jaws allows us to set it to warn us when the
>> >>>indentation
>> >
>> >>>changes, but I never liked that way of working.
>> >>> That's because I don't remember the indentation levels, so I never
>> >>> use
>> >>> indentation. When I was sighted I considered a program code a bad
>> >>> code
>> > by
>> >>> default if I saw that it doesn't use indentation. But now I don't
>> >>> find
>> > it
>> >>> useful.
>> >>>
>> >>> I am so used to (not) hear the (){} and the quotes that sometimes
>> >>> when I
>> >
>> >>> want to be sure that a certain line really contains quotes or some
>> >>> other
>> >
>> >>> chars, I need to read it char by char, because I almost don't hear
>> >>> Jaws
>> >>> saying "quote" or "left param", "right param", so it is not a >> >>> problem
>> > for
>> >>> me.
>> >>>
>> >>> I like to hear the punctuation signs, because then I know that
>> >>> everything's all right. That's why I never like to put the first {
>> >>> after
>> >
>> >>> a subroutine definition on the next line after the subroutine
>> >>> signature.
>> >
>> >>> It might be friendlier for the sighted to put it that way, because
>> >>> some
>> >>> programmers might use indentation and it might align with the
>> >>> ending },
>> >>> however I don't need indentation, so the code would become bigger
>> >>> with a
>> >
>> >>> line, with no benefit.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't need { and } just for jumping from the start of a block to
>> >>> its
>> >>> end, but to select the content of that block also, for pasting it
>> >>> into
>> >>> another place in the program source.
>> >>>
>> >>> I also need them because that way I can detect if I wrote a >> >>> correct
>> > code.
>> >>> For example, if I see that the start { doesn't match with the
>> >>> ending },
>> >>> it generally means that something was not correct, and the match >> >>> will
>> >>> be
>> >
>> >>> usually with a { or } which would another pair { or } and this way
>> >>> would
>> >
>> >>> be easier to detect where I've made the mistake.
>> >>>
>> >>> (This is important in a perl program where I use many hash >> >>> elements
>> > wrote
>> >>> with { and }. In other languages it might be not so important).
>> >>>
>> >>> Octavian
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:50 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>I realize you are expressing your own opinion. Mine is different. >> >>>>I
>> >>>> find both advantages and disadvantages.  Braces do have the
>> >>>> advantage
>> > of
>> >>>> easier navigation by matching a brace that starts or ends a block >> >>>> of >> >>>> code. The lack of braces, parentheses, and semicolons, on the >> >>>> other
>> >>>> hand, makes the code cleaner, less verbose with speech, easier to
>> >>>> read,
>> >>>> and less prone to common syntax errors of forgetting to include a
>> >>>> punctuation mark in code that is otherwise correct syntax.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I know you prefer TextPad, but let me make sure others are aware
>> >>>> that
>> >>>> TextPal and EdSharp include several commands that help manage
>> >>>> indentation in speech friendly ways.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jamal
>> >>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Octavian Rasnita
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:51:42 +0300
>> >>>>> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Yes, the fact that it can be used as a scripting language is an
>> >>>>> advantage.
>> >>>>> But the fact that it doesn't use { and } to include blocks, and >> >>>>> ;
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> end the
>> >>>>> statements, it is a big disadvantage.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Just like python, it is friendlier for sure for sighted users, >> >>>>> but
>> >>>>> not
>> >
>> >>>>> for
>> >>>>> the blind.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Octavian
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:11 PM
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> > Boo does have the indentation issue of Python. The language >> >>>>> > is
>> >>>>> > considerably more concise and friendly than C#, however.  This
>> >>>>> > probably
>> >>>>> > does not show in the example I posted because I used an >> >>>>> > automatic
>> >>>>> > converter from C# that did a more or less literal translation
>> >>>>> > rather
>> >
>> >>>>> > than
>> >>>>> > taking advantage of Boo idioms.  I will try to write a more
>> >>>>> > Booish
>> >>>>> > version
>> >>>>> > when I get a chance (or anyone else can feel free to do so).
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Besides more convenient syntax (except for the indentation
>> >>>>> > requirement),
>> >>>>> > Boo has the advantage of an interpretive mode over C#. Thus, >> >>>>> > one
>> > can
>> >>>>> > test expressions in an interactive environment. When the code >> >>>>> > is >> >>>>> > refined, one can still compile to a stand-alone executable >> >>>>> > like
>> >>>>> > C#.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Jamal
>> >>>>> > On Sat,
>> >>>>> > 20 Oct 2007, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 09:39:08 +0300
>> >>>>> >> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>>> >> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>>> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>>> >> Subject: Re: Fruit basket program in Boo
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Well, I'd say that this language also borrows the >> >>>>> >> disadvantages
>> >>>>> >> of
>> >>>>> >> python
>> >>>>> >> and the disadvantages of C#.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> It is harder to use by a blind because of its python style
>> >>>>> >> without
>> >>>>> >> punctuation signs, it requires same much code as C#, and it >> >>>>> >> is
>> >>>>> >> not
>> >>>>> >> portable.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> If Windows need to be the target platform, I think C# is much
>> > better
>> >>>>> >> for
>> >>>>> >> creating such a program.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Octavian
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>> >> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>>> >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:22 AM
>> >>>>> >> Subject: Fruit basket program in Boo
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> > From the zip archive at
>> >>>>> >> > http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/boo_fruit.zip
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > This fruit basket program is written in Boo  -- Full source
>> >>>>> >> > code
>> >>>>> >> > in the
>> >>>>> >> > zip archive and pasted below.  The batch file compile.bat
>> >>>>> >> > invokes
>> >
>> >>>>> >> > the
>> >>>>> >> > command-line compiler for this scripting language.  The
>> >>>>> >> > resulting
>> >>>>> >> > executable, boo_fruit.exe, is about 12K in size.  No other
>> >>>>> >> > files
>> >>>>> >> > are
>> >>>>> >> > needed to run the program -- as long as the .NET Framework >> >>>>> >> > 2.0
>> >>>>> >> > is
>> >>>>> >> > installed.
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > Boo borrows syntax from Python, seeks to improve it, and
>> >>>>> >> > combine
>> >>>>> >> > strengths
>> >>>>> >> > of both static and dynamic languages.  Its home page is at
>> >>>>> >> > http://boo.codehaus.org
>> >>>>> >> > Boo resources, including the interpreter, compiler,
>> > documentation,
>> >>>>> >> > and
>> >>>>> >> > examples are available from there.
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > I am still learning Boo, but was able to produce a working
>> > program
>> >>>>> >> > by
>> >>>>> >> > converting the first C# fruit basket program I did via a >> >>>>> >> > web
>> >>>>> >> > form
>> >>>>> >> > available at
>> >>>>> >> > http://codeconverter.sharpdevelop.net/Convert.aspx
>> >>>>> >> > For comparison, the C# code is available in the file
>> >>>>> >> > cs_fruit.cs.
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > Jamal
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > /*
>> >>>>> >> > content of boo_fruit.boo
>> >>>>> >> > Fruit Basket program in Boo
>> >>>>> >> > Public domain by Jamal Mazrui
>> >>>>> >> > */
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > namespace MyNamespace
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > import System.Windows.Forms
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > // define class inherited from Form
>> >>>>> >> > public class MyForm(System.Windows.Forms.Form):
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > private lblFruit as Label
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > private txtFruit as TextBox
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > private lblBasket as Label
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > private lbBasket as ListBox
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > private btnAdd as Button
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > private btnDelete as Button
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > public def constructor():
>> >>>>> >> > // define constructor
>> >>>>> >> > // set window title
>> >>>>> >> > self.Text = 'Fruit Basket'
>> >>>>> >> > //this.Width = 328;
>> >>>>> >> > self.Width = 400
>> >>>>> >> > self.Height = 285
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > // create two rows of controls with three controls in each
>> >>>>> >> > row
>> >>>>> >> > // label, textbox, button and label, listbox, button
>> >>>>> >> > lblFruit = Label()
>> >>>>> >> > lblFruit.Text = '&Fruit:'
>> >>>>> >> > lblFruit.Left = 14
>> >>>>> >> > lblFruit.Top = 14
>> >>>>> >> > lblFruit.Width = 44
>> >>>>> >> > lblFruit.Height = 16
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > txtFruit = TextBox()
>> >>>>> >> > txtFruit.Left = 64
>> >>>>> >> > txtFruit.Top = 14
>> >>>>> >> > txtFruit.Width = 200
>> >>>>> >> > txtFruit.Height = 16
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > btnAdd = Button()
>> >>>>> >> > btnAdd.Text = '&Add'
>> >>>>> >> > btnAdd.Left = 272
>> >>>>> >> > btnAdd.Top = 14
>> >>>>> >> > btnAdd.Width = 100
>> >>>>> >> > btnAdd.Height = 20
>> >>>>> >> > //  make it the default button
>> >>>>> >> > self.AcceptButton = btnAdd
>> >>>>> >> > btnAdd.Click += self.OnAddClick
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > lblBasket = Label()
>> >>>>> >> > lblBasket.Text = '&Basket:'
>> >>>>> >> > lblBasket.Left = 14
>> >>>>> >> > lblBasket.Top = 38
>> >>>>> >> > lblBasket.Width = 44
>> >>>>> >> > lblBasket.Height = 16
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket = ListBox()
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.Left = 64
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.Top = 38
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.Width = 200
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.Height = 200
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > btnDelete = Button()
>> >>>>> >> > btnDelete.Text = '&Delete'
>> >>>>> >> > btnDelete.Left = 272
>> >>>>> >> > btnDelete.Top = 38
>> >>>>> >> > btnDelete.Width = 100
>> >>>>> >> > btnDelete.Height = 20
>> >>>>> >> > btnDelete.Click += self.OnDeleteClick
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > // add controls to form
>> >>>>> >> > self.Controls.Add(lblFruit)
>> >>>>> >> > self.Controls.Add(txtFruit)
>> >>>>> >> > self.Controls.Add(btnAdd)
>> >>>>> >> > self.Controls.Add(lblBasket)
>> >>>>> >> > self.Controls.Add(lbBasket)
>> >>>>> >> > self.Controls.Add(btnDelete)
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > // center form on screen
>> >>>>> >> > self.StartPosition = FormStartPosition.CenterScreen
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > // define event handlers for add and delete buttons
>> >>>>> >> > protected def OnAddClick(sender as object, e as
>> > System.EventArgs):
>> >>>>> >> > sFruit as string
>> >>>>> >> > sFruit = txtFruit.Text
>> >>>>> >> > if sFruit == '':
>> >>>>> >> > MessageBox.Show('No fruit to add.', 'Alert')
>> >>>>> >> > else:
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.Items.Add(sFruit)
>> >>>>> >> > txtFruit.Text = ''
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.SelectedIndex = (lbBasket.Items.Count -
>> >>>>> >> > 1)
>> >>>>> >> > txtFruit.Focus()
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > protected def OnDeleteClick(sender as object, e as
>> >>>>> >> > System.EventArgs):
>> >>>>> >> > iFruit as int
>> >>>>> >> > iFruit = lbBasket.SelectedIndex
>> >>>>> >> > if iFruit == (-1):
>> >>>>> >> > MessageBox.Show('No fruit to delete.', 'Alert')
>> >>>>> >> > else:
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.Items.RemoveAt(iFruit)
>> >>>>> >> > if iFruit > (lbBasket.Items.Count - 1):
>> >>>>> >> > iFruit = (lbBasket.Items.Count - 1)
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.SelectedIndex = iFruit
>> >>>>> >> > lbBasket.Focus()
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > // define main entry point of application
>> >>>>> >> > public static def Main():
>> >>>>> >> > Application.Run(MyForm())
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > MyForm.Main()
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > //End of program
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >> > __________
>> >>>>> >> > View the list's information and change your settings at
>> >>>>> >> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>> >>>>> >> >
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> __________
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>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> __________
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>> >>>
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>> >>>
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