RE: FLOS manuals
- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:50:53 -0400
Jamal,
#1: You're absolutely 100% right that it was a personal attack. I apologize
that I gave into my extreme frustration so easily.
#2: you said, "I do believe that we should follow through on pledges made to
the community, a concept that has evidently caused much
difficulty for you over the years."
A. Java fruit basket program ... This actually was completed. I made two
submissions to it, and as I recall, Ken made some as well.
Not to mention, there were several off line discussions involving particular
bugs E.G. exceptions thrown in combo boxes when
accessible events were requested, one of which existed with the actual access
bridge, so forgive me for not fixing Sun's mistakes.
B. the Remote Access Bridge ... This was taken out of my hands by university
legal. It is interesting that you mention it because I
am currently working with the university's attorneys to get this published
under an open source license, so that we can then turn
it, and hopefully the chant.net license purchased with for it, over to the
community, and so that folks at FSF/GNU/others can take
over and manage it. In fact I just sent an internal email about this issue,
yesterday. Yes, it's taken way longer than I would have
liked, but welcome to technology transfer, change of vice provosts in charge of
projects, my father getting cancer during it all,
etc, etc.
C. Java Screen Reader ... I don't recall committing a specific time for this
project. I remember mentioning I was working on one,
which actually was written and was tested on the remote access bridge, but I do
still have that code lying around, and I can polish
it off and transition it to someone in the open source community to manage. If
I did make a commitment, separate from the stuff
related to the Remote Access Bridge, on this one, I apologize.
D. fruit basket project being kept current ... With all due respect, please
don't use the ignorance of this list just to belabor and
make your own personal points. You know, as well as I do, that the fruit
basket project was transitioned to the RTF initiative,
which then fell flatly on its face months and months later, or so it seems at
any rate. That project was transitioned a while back,
and the only reason I still link to the fruit basket program was because I
offered to keep the subdomain up. While I'm sure that's
an implicit agreement to manage the project, it most certainly was not an
explicit one, once the transfer to RTF was complete.
... Regarding my involvement
There are lots of things I've contributed to, which I don't bother spamming
every single list about. The one I'm most proud of
recently is a project in Nepal, but there are others as well. Just because I
don't' feel the need to publically advertise my
involvement and contributions, doesn't make them any more or less real than
your so frequently emailed ones
... Regarding my position on FSF's position on cloud computing, you bet we
disagree on points. We do so in a way that leads to
fruitful discussions and growth. I'm an extremely prolific Windows user, and
yet I care about the Vinux project dearly ... That
doesn't mean I shouldn't help Vinux because I'm a Windows user. The same goes
with some disagreement on cloud computing and my
involvement with fSF.
... Regarding Adam ...
Floss, not Chris dropped the ball repeatedly. Thus, Chris's wife manually
downloaded each one, an effort you haven't thanked her for
once in all of your complaints on this issue.
She did so on a Mac, and they got saved as .webarchives. I found some
extraction tools, but they are horrible, so instead I'm
having a friend save each one off as an accessible pdf, which I will then
render an accessible html from hopefully, using a copy of
acrobat pro, I've got installed on this laptop. In this way, the layout and
images should be preserved.
On a secondary note, I'm glad you got all that off your chest. I'm sure it was
a long time coming, and I hope you feel better.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 12:13 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'Chris Hofstader'
Subject: RE: FLOS manuals
Note to the moderator of this list,
I think language like
"Jamal, you are an ass."
is not acceptable on this list. Since Sina is the moderator of the JAWS
scripting list, he certainly knows better.
Sina,
Where does one start with such a pathetic, personal attack as yours?
First, I have been addressing Chris, not you, but since you chose to intervene,
I will respond.
Rather than "incessantly whining," I had been politely inquiring about this
every few weeks after the offer was made, which included
the idea that I help to redistribute the collection. I could drudge up the
correspondence, but the fact is that almost each step of
the way, Chris dropped the ball, something he has essentially acknowledged and
apologized for. The follow through was not
professional, to say the least, and I think we need to have reasonable
expectations of each other, especially if we want sighted
people to do so as well..
I do believe that we should follow through on pledges made to the community, a
concept that has evidently caused much difficulty for
you over the years. Let us see -- there was the Java fruit basket program you
had such difficulty in completing, the Remote Access
Bridge that never was published, the Java screen reader that never came out,
and the fruit basket project that you have failed to
keep anywhere near current.
Although I had not heard of your involvement with Vinux before the recent
release, I do appreciate that you have contributed to it,
and hope that is a sign of better follow through from you. I did find your
role in the recent FSF press release a bit ironic, since
you have referred to FSF as idealogical in the past, and you sharply criticized
its position on cloud computing
Regarding the statement
"can you please contribute something positive, or shut the hell up?"
have you not been paying attention to any of the lists to which you subscribe?
Others regularly express appreciation for my
contributions.
Besides open source projects, I have contributed much accessible documentation
on NonvisualDevelopment.org, and was eager to add a
significant collection there after getting it from Chris or Elf.
Since the Floss manuals came from the Linux world, why are you having to
convert them from a Mac format? That seems like quite a
round about approach, especially when I think Adam from Floss Manuals said they
could be generated to HTML from an XML source.
I await the collection you are preparing .... Try actually delivering before
your next attack!
Jamal
On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Sina
Bahram wrote:
> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:10:26 -0400
> From: Sina Bahram <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: 'Chris Hofstader' <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: FLOS manuals
>
> The below email is from Sina Bahram as a private citizen and in no way
> reflects the views of anybody or anything else!
>
> That's it, I've stayed quiet on this issue for far too long!
>
> Jamal, you are an ass.
>
> With all due respect, I don't' see why anyone would want to discuss the
> weather with you, much less anything of actual import.
>
> While you've been incessantly whining, some of us have actually been trying
> to work on this problem.
>
> The file has now been uploaded to my website, and I'm working on it on
> my laptop. The zip archive contains .webarchive files which have to be
> converted to a more sensible format: you can thank Steve
Jobs et al for such a stupid way of storing a webpage.
>
> So Jamal, can you please contribute something positive, or shut the hell up?
>
> Take care,
> Sina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal
> Mazrui
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:22 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: Chris Hofstader
> Subject: Re: FLOS manuals
>
> Hi Chris,
> Your original post on this topic said that you were doing this in
> conjunction with the FSF membership coordinator, who presumably is
> quite familiar with FSF policies and practices. Also, Adam said in the
> message you forwarded that almost all the manuals were
GPL, so the few that were not could have been removed if that was important.
>
> Besides the suggestions that list members had given you about free
> file sharing services, Elf then gave you info about how to upload to
> his public FTP account. After we subsequently determined that nothing had
> been sent via FTP, you asked for the FTP info again,
which Elf repeated.
> The files were then sent as email attachments instead.
>
> The discussion about the inaccessible .WebSite format was also under
> the email subject of Floss manuals, to which you have otherwise
> responded, so I do not know why that discussion was missed. I do realize
> that can happen with email, but it puzzles me that you
never thought to check that the files had been received in usable form since
your goal was to make them publicly available..
>
> The FCC is not conducting a proceeding on Section 255; the Access
> Board is. More importantly, this project has had no relation to that
> proceeding, so there has been no issue in discussing the
project with me.
>
> Jamal
>
> On 6/10/2010 5:56 PM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> First, I fucked up when I led people to believe that this was an
>> FSF/GNU project. Most of the manuals are about proprietary systems
>> and, therefore, FSF/GNU cannot endorse them by working to get them
>> any sort of wider distribution.
>>
>> I should not have included reference to Deborah or FSF in any way but
>> I was pretty new to being a GNU full time employee and I didn't know
>> all of the rules. To make things worse, I hadn't looked at the list
>> of items that Floss distributes so I had no idea if they were free
>> software oriented or a more general This was a mistake, not waiting
>> for Adam from Floss Manuals to provide the tar ball that he promised
>> before Susan jumped in to try to get it done.
>>
>> Also, Susan never got a note from Mr. Elf telling her that there was
>> a problem which we could have addressed more than a month ago. If we
>> don't know thereis a problem, we won't try to fix it.
>>
>> Now that our 508/255 refresh comments are pretty much done (we have a
>> few grammar and paragraph flow problems), I can actually talk to you
>> without any sense of impropriety. I wouldn't want to hear that you
>> got in trouble for working with FSF/GNU people who were working on
>> making suggestions about regulations that your agency is responsible
>> for enforcing. I've seen lots of others get in trouble for
>> questionable communications between an advocacy and software
>> development group like us and a regulator like you.
>>
>> Also, I will *never* pre-announce *anything* without the knowledge
>> that what is being announced has already happened as problems
>> regarding projects that require a lot of volunteers can get erratic.
>>
>> You also complained recently that GNU does not have an accessibility
>> web page. We're doing some research on various licenses so we are
>> only linking to free software. I think you will like how we are doing
>> it as it is wiki based.
>>
>> If Elf posted to the blind programmer list about the weird file
>> format I didn't see that message. With over 500 emails per day, I
>> can't do too much more than skim through the mailing list posts.
>>
>> I expected it will be a .tar.gz available for ftp download very soon.
>>
>> As for "first impressions" I think the rave reviews that the vinux
>> distro have caused anyone looking for the manuals to have forgotten
>> about the books and, instead, are enjoying the bits.
>>
>> To recap:
>>
>> 1. I should never have let FSF be mentioned in my original announcement.
>>
>> 2. I should have answered all questions regarding the Floss project
>> by refering people to Adam and washed my hands of the affair.
>> Instead, I asked Susan to work on it and send the information to the
>> Elf. She did the best she could and didn't know enough about some of
>> the tools on the command line to succeed in the task.
>>
>> I expect it will be available for download sometime tomorrow.
>>
>> Happy Hacking,
>> cdh
>>
>>
>> On 06/10/2010 03:39 PM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>> Chris,
>>> Unfortunately, this has become frustrating, and it is affecting my
>>> motivation to get involved in FSF projects. Below is the message you
>>> posted at the end of March indicating an FSF-related effort you were
>>> undertaking to make all available Floss manuals easily accessible to
>>> blind people -- with distribution help from Elf and me after we got
>>> the collection. Multiple list members responded to your post,
>>> expressing strong interest in such documentation.
>>>
>>> Every few weeks, after hearing nothing about follow up, I have
>>> inquired about the status. Almost every time you have said that you
>>> forgot about it, and indicated that your wife will take the next step.
>>> Although you have your own web space on DreamHost, and other free
>>> services exist for sharing a large archive, the manuals were
>>> apparently individually sent to Inthane as about 40 email
>>> attachments in a format he could not open.
>>>
>>>
>>> While other accessibility efforts are surely underway, this is the
>>> first impression many of us are getting about the FSF commitment to
>>> accessibility. Isn't it time to take charge of this matter yourself,
>>> and ensure delivery on an offer that was made to our community?
>>>
>>> Jamal
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 15:53:15 -0400
>>> Subject: Fwd: Floss manuals for people with vision impairment
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Deborah, the FSF membership coordinator, and I sent an email to the
>>> person in charge of Floss Manuals, the company that published the
>>> command line tutorial I mentioned earlier. Adam says that almost all
>>> of their books use GPL as their license and that he can provide
>>> their entire catalogue in PDF rolled up into a big .tar file. His
>>> note is below.
>>>
>>> This is all happening pretty fast so I haven't had the chance to
>>> take a look at the rest of the books they have but I'd bet that some
>>> will interest some of you.
>>>
>>> If Jamal or Elf want, they can take the entire .tar open it up and
>>> put as much as they like on their sites. If PDF needs to be
>>> converted to text, I'm sure that won't be too hard.
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>> From: adam hyde <adam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>>> hey Chris and Deborah,
>>>>
>>>> All books from FLOSS Manuals are available under a free license and
>>> you
>>>> are welcome to use them as you choose for free as long as the same
>>>> license is maintained (we use the GPL for all books except 3 or 4
>>> which
>>>> are either CC-BY-SA or FDL). We can provide PDF, plain html (each
>>>> book on one page) or odt. Probably for us the PDF is the easiest to
>>> provide.
>>>>
>>>> Here is an example of a PDF from us:
>>>> <http://en.flossmanuals.net/Ardour/FM_22Mar10.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> we can provide you with a tar of all the manuals in pdf if you like...
>>>>
>>>> adam
>>>>
>>>> Founder FLOSS Manuals
>>>> German mobile : + 49 177 4935122
>>>> Email : adam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> irc: irc.freenode.net #flossmanuals
>>>>
>>>> "Free manuals for free software"
>>>> <http://www.flossmanuals.net/about>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>>
>>>> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:45:08 -0400 (EDT)
>>>> From: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: FLOS manuals
>>>>
>>>> Elf reported to the list that the 40 or so files were in a
>>>> Macintosh .WebSite format that he could not access. He was going to
>>>> search for a tool that would enable him to open the files, but no
>>>> one knew of a Windows-based one that could definately do the job.
>>>>
>>>> Can't you post the collection in a zip archive somewhere
>>>> (DreamHost, SendSpace, or whatever)?
>>>>
>>>> Jamal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:50:59 -0400
>>>>> From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: Re: FLOS manuals
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Susan did a handoff to Mr. Elf a couple of weeks ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been covered in tar and feathers volunteering on the clean-up
>>>>> in Alabama all week so this effort hasn't even crossed my mind in
>>>>> the slightest.
>>>>>
>>>>> cdh
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: Please call me to discuss the things I left on your voice mail
>>>>> last week.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06/10/2010 11:13 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>>>>> Can we get a status update on making an accessible collection of
>>>>>> these available?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jamal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>> __________
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