Re: Dang it!!

  • From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:31:18 -0700

Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing after reading Chris' post. At the very least it seems as though a good case can be made by Microsoft that the FS speech and sounds manager is nothing more than an amplification of Microsoft's sounds and audio devices utility within the control panel--there is no great FS originality or innovation in their Jaws speech and sounds manager. I clearly recall Earl lauding this speech and sounds manager as if it were the greatest creation ever and that he could see jaws users trading sound schemes back and forth and having this good o time with their incredible creation bla bla bla. 


Matthew
---- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx> 
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Dang it!!
Seems to me that Microsoft, who after all has used sounds including assignable sound schemes to properties and events has a much stronger claim on copyright infringement. There is a difference though, while I object to many Microsoft practices in that regard at least they have demonstrated a much bigger spirit than some petulant companies. 

Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
DLeavens@xxxxxxx
Skype DaleLeavens
Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat.
----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Hofstader 
 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 6:25 PM
 Subject: RE: Dang it!!
The JAWS Speech and Sounds Manager, a cool feature, is covered by both US and EU patent protection. You can search for the US patent on the USPTO web site. It names me and some others as inventors. If you followed FS v. Serotek, in the trademark dispute, you should tread lightly in areas for which they have documented legal protection as, in both US and EU, you would be subject to triple damages if found guilty of knowingly (which you have pronounced in your last email) violated FS' patented intellectual property. 






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From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of dusty bray 
 Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 1:25 PM
 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 Subject: Dang it!!
i'm so steamed!! It appears JAWS thought of this sound scheme idea first. i really had to hunt for it, but i found it deep in some menus. And i don't think it just associates with a list of words; i think it actually associates with control types like mine does. Dang it!
Oh well, but i will make it popular! smile. And hopefully i won't be sued by JAWS; it's a great idea and i think it could really advance the blind community if it were universally accepted someday. i think JAWS' version is a little different simply because they don't define a set of default sounds. You have to set each one yourself, don't you? So if nothing else, i would like to promote a standard set of sounds just as sighted users have a universally recognized set of icons.
Well, thanks so much, everyone, for letting me know about this feature in JAWS. i'm going to go sulk now. smile 

 dusty.......




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   From: jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
   Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
   Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:04:20 -0400


   Hi Dusty,
JAWS has a speach and sounds manager. It allows any word that JAWS is pronouncing to either be associated with a sound or use a sound to substitute for a word.
While this mechanism can be used to approximate the behavior of your web page editor, it does not truly recognize the types of objects on the screen.
I have made this adjustment in my dictionary manager so that I hear a harp string instead of the word "link" a million times when I read a web page. This one change alone has sped up my web access and made life much less annoying for me.
Using sounds in a way that does not interfere with the user hearing the text may very well speed up access. Any improvement in this area is a welcome change. 

   Thanks for trying this idea. I'll give it a try.

   Regards,
   Jim
   jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
   jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
   "Everything is easy when you know how."
----- Original Message ----- From: John Greer 
   To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
   Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 7:36 AM
   Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
Well to tell you the truth, I have known some blind persons to assign sounds to every event that can be assigned in Windows. So you also have to plan for those people too. I would also have to agree, there should also be an option to not use the sounds. The screen reader however would still need to identify the elements that the sounds are identifying though. For example, instead of having a pop sound to identify a Submit button that is red, the screen reader should say red Submit button. ----- Original Message ----- From: dusty bray 
     To: programmingblind@freelistsorg
     Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:09 AM
     Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind
i could always use a good "boing" sound. smile. But i would certainly accompny it with some kind of text of course. You know, it's really hard to find good, free sound effects. i'll have to check out clipmate.
Well, i see what you're saying about sounds clashing, and that is another good reason to allow the user to turn sounds off. However, how often do applications make sounds when objects receive focus? They usually accompany an action, like a button click. So, i wouldn't think these sounds would get in the way very often. 

     dusty.......

     > From: leaves1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     > To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
     > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
     > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:34:08 -0400
     >
> Well, all I can say is I have a great "boing" sound for an error condition. > but then again, text describing the error would really be more relevant than 
     > and boing...
     >
> If you want to hear some great sound effects, check out the old clipmate > clibpoard manager for windows. I loved using the various features so I > could hear how it sounded, and indeed the sounds were helpful. But this > brings up the problem of your program having sounds that might clash with 
     > another program. Just a thought.
     > Good luck and happy hacking.
     > --le
     >
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
     > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
     > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:50 PM
     > Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
     >
     >
> This method of generating audio icons is interesting. It does appear to hold > the potential of speeding up computing, but it might have a steep learning > curve as the new user will have to take lots of time out to learn the sounds > then create the mental associations with the sound and the intended action. > In other words, there is a possibility of new users giving up on it as they > might deem it much more difficult to use than the more common methods of > computing. That is, it will be easier for them to know what to do with an > audio message telling them "Ok," than an audio message telling them "beep > beep." Now that I think of it, if you attach piano sounds to the audio-icons > you might end up composing quite a musical piece and not even know it. 
     >
> Then again there is the noise factor as all these strange sounds might annoy 
     > or at the very least distract others in the vicinity.
     >
> I do believe that your audio-icons do have great potential in that they can > be of great use to power users that only need that tiny hint of reassurance 
     > they're moving along and clicking what they intend to click.
     >
> "Oh wait," I just thought of something, doesn't this type of computing > already exist to some extent within the Jaws speech and sounds manager? 
     >
> Regardless, I would continue exploring this interaction channel as it might > ultimately yield lots of efficiency for the proficient blind computer user. 
     >
     > Thanks,
     > Matthew
> ---- Original Message ----- > From: "dusty bray" <dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
     > To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
     > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:19 PM
     > Subject: RE: Web Page Editor for the Blind
     >
     >
     > >
> > Yeah, you're definitely right, inthane-- it should have an option to turn > > off the sounds, but this version is severely lacking in many, many ways > > right now. i just wanted to give everyone an idea of how this system 
     > > works.
     > >
> > And honestly, i think if i gave that option initially, then everyone would 
     > > just turn it off and not actually try to make it work smile. i
> > anticipate this being somewhat of a learning curve because the user has to > > build mental connections between a sound and its meaning. In the same > > way, users had difficulty transitioning from command line to Windows based > > operating systems because the graphical symbols were totally unfamiliar at > > first. But today, there exists a universally recognized set of graphics > > for identifying objects, and these graphics allow sighted users to work > > more efficiently now. i see an opportunity to use background noises for > > the same purpose. You could fit a lot of useful information in that empty 
     > > space.
     > >
> > Of course, Windows has already tried to incorporate sounds into the > > interface, but these sounds were used very inappropriately. Instead of > > associating objects with sounds, they associated actions with sounds, > > which gives information after the fact. So even as i use this new system, > > i'm having to consciously reprogram myself not to think of these sounds as 
     > > actions but as markers for object types.
     > >
     > > But i do want to know if people find this particular set of sounds
> > overbearing. Should i adjust the volumes? Can you hear the voice clearly 
     > > over the sounds?
     > >
> > Also, did you ever recieve my original message?? That's really strange. 
     > > It's still programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, right?
     > >
> > Ok, well definitely give me your oppinion if you get a chance to use the 
     > > software. Thanks,
     > >
     > > dusty.......
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >
     > >> From: inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     > >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
     > >> Subject: Re: Web Page Editor for the Blind
     > >> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:23:42 -0700
     > >>
> >> interesting, I got your reply to Dusty's message, but haven't received 
     > >> the
     > >> original even yet, hmmmmm!
     > >>
> >> I haven't tried your ap yet Dusty, but it would be nice if you could 
     > >> reverse
> >> things, in other words, turn off the added sounds, and return it to full > >> speaking of the items, since I don't do well with sounds, maybe a check 
     > >> box
> >> in an options menu/dialog for changing it, giving the user the choice? 
     > >>
     > >> regards,
     > >> inthane
> >> ? For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful Programs, and 
     > >> Links
> >> to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications, visit me at: 
     > >> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
> >> ? to be able to view a simple programming project in several programming 
     > >> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
     > >> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
     > >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "John covici" <covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
     > >> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
     > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:49 PM
     > >> Subject: Web Page Editor for the Blind
     > >>
     > >>
> >> >I wonder if it would work with hardware speech at all since the speech 
     > >> > and the sound may get out of sync? Ever test this?
     > >> >
> >> > on Wednesday 10/10/2007 dusty bray(dusty_bray@xxxxxxxxxxx) wrote 
     > >> > >
     > >> > > Hi everybody,
     > >> > >
> >> > > i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web page editor that 
     > >> > > i$,1rym starting and give some feedback.
     > >> > >
> >> > > i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this program that i 
     > >> > > hope
> >> > > will allow blind users to easily create content-rich Web pages. > >> > > i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical expression editor. > >> > > And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the other surprises i$,1ryve 
     > >> > > added.
     > >> > >
     > >> > > This application also introduces a new concept for quickly
> >> > > differentiating between controls in the editor$,1rys interface. In > >> > > applications designed for sighted users, components are visually > >> > > distinct: buttons appear raised, text boxes appear inset, and each 
     > >> > > item
     > >> > > differs in some way that suggests its intended function. Page
     > >> > > Designer
> >> > > achieves this effect auditorily. The application plays programmatic > >> > > sounds in parallel with voice output to quickly identify both an 
     > >> > > object$,1rys type and its value. So rather than speaking "OK
     > >> > > button",
> >> > > the editor speaks "OK" and plays a popping sound at the same moment, > >> > > effectively saving half the number of syllables. Textboxes are > >> > > associated with a tapping sound; picture boxes are accompanied by the > >> > > sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a radio button$,1rys sound 
     > >> > > varies depending its selection state.
     > >> > >
     > >> > > Visit this link to download the application:
> >> > > http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip 
     > >> > > The executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.
     > >> > >
> >> > > Please have patience with it. This is only a beta version of the 
     > >> > > program. Also, the interface is very different and takes some
     > >> > > getting
     > >> > > used to.
     > >> > >
     > >> > > i hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the
> >> > > navigation keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict. As 
     > >> > > before,
> >> > > the navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent 
     > >> > > nodes
     > >> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes
> >> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more details of 
     > >> > > an
> >> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, pressing > >> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, revealing 
     > >> > > a
     > >> > > "bigger picture".
     > >> > >
> >> > > Unfortunately, this program is still far from the screen reader i > >> > > envision. This is just a self-voicing application, and the objects 
     > >> > > do
> >> > > not correspond to actual objects on the screen, so it probably lacks > >> > > much of the functionality to which you may be accustomed. But i feel 
     > >> > > like i$,1rym slowly getting closer.
     > >> > >
     > >> > > Hope you enjoy it,
     > >> > >
     > >> > > dusty.......
     > >> > >
     > >> > >
> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ 
     > >> > > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger
     > >> > > Caf,Ai.
     > >> > > Stop by today.
> >> > > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline<html> 
     > >> > > <head>
     > >> > > <style>
     > >> > > .hmmessage P
     > >> > > {
     > >> > > margin:0px;
     > >> > > padding:0px
     > >> > > }
     > >> > > body.hmmessage
     > >> > > {
     > >> > > FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
     > >> > > FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
     > >> > > }
     > >> > > </style>
     > >> > > </head>
     > >> > > <body class='hmmessage'>
> >> > > Hi everybody,<br><br>i$,1rym looking for people to evaluate the Web 
     > >> > > page editor that i$,1rym starting and give some
> >> > > feedback.<br><br>i$,1rym incorporating some cool features into this 
     > >> > > program that i hope will allow blind users to easily create
     > >> > > content-rich
> >> > > Web pages.&nbsp; i$,1rym especially excited about the mathematical > >> > > expression editor.&nbsp; And i think you$,1ryll enjoy some of the 
     > >> > > other surprises i$,1ryve added.<br><br>This application also
> >> > > introduces a new concept for quickly differentiating between controls 
     > >> > > in
> >> > > the editor$,1rys interface. In applications designed for sighted > >> > > users, components are visually distinct: buttons appear raised, text > >> > > boxes appear inset, and each item differs in some way that suggests 
     > >> > > its
> >> > > intended function. Page Designer achieves this effect auditorily. The > >> > > application plays programmatic sounds in parallel with voice output 
     > >> > > to
> >> > > quickly identify both an object$,1rys type and its value. So rather > >> > > than speaking "OK button", the editor speaks "OK" and plays a popping > >> > > sound at the same moment, effectively saving half the number of > >> > > syllables. Textboxes are associated with a tapping sound; picture 
     > >> > > boxes
> >> > > are accompanied by the sound of a camera shutter; the volume of a 
     > >> > > radio
     > >> > > button$,1rys sound varies depending its selection
     > >> > > state.<br><br>Visit
     > >> > > this link to download the application:&nbsp;
> >> > > http://here-i-am.sourceforge.net/downloads/Here-I-Am_Page-Designer1.zip<br>The > >> > > executable is named here-i-am_page-designer.<br><br>Please have 
     > >> > > patience
> >> > > with it.&nbsp; This is only a beta version of the program.&nbsp; 
     > >> > > Also,
     > >> > > the interface is very different and takes some getting used
     > >> > > to.<br><br>i
     > >> > > hate making concessions for JAWS, but i$,1ryve changed the
     > >> > > navigation
> >> > > keys to ensure my program doesn$,1ryt conflict.&nbsp; As before, the > >> > > navigation model arranges content into a hierarchy with parent nodes 
     > >> > > corresponding to higher levels of abstraction and child nodes
> >> > > corresponding to lower levels of abstraction. To see more details of 
     > >> > > an
> >> > > object, press spacebar. If at any point you becomes lost, pressing > >> > > Escape will move the selection up one level of abstraction, revealing 
     > >> > > a
> >> > > "bigger picture".<br><br>Unfortunately, this program is still far 
     > >> > > from
> >> > > the screen reader i envision.&nbsp; This is just a self-voicing > >> > > application, and the objects do not correspond to actual objects on 
     > >> > > the
> >> > > screen, so it probably lacks much of the functionality to which you 
     > >> > > may
     > >> > > be accustomed.&nbsp; But i feel like i$,1rym slowly getting
> >> > > closer.<br><br>Hope you enjoy it,<br><br>dusty.......<br><br><br 
     > >> > > /><hr
> >> > > />Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger 
     > >> > > Caf,Ai. <a
> >> > > href='http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline' 
     > >> > > target='_new'>Stop by today!</a></body>
     > >> > > </html>
> >> > -- > >> > Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: 
     > >> > How do
     > >> > you spend it?
     > >> >
     > >> > John Covici
     > >> > covici@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'カ翰学ョf渇旛jxハ恭・xjリカ淌 ュ迥ヒ「ク・嘯カ・nX
     > >> __________
     > >> View the list's information and change your settings at
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     > >>
     > >
     > > _________________________________________________________________
     > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
     > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
     >
     > __________
     > View the list's information and change your settings at
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     >
     > __________
     > View the list's information and change your settings at
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