RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO

  • From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:36:39 -0400

Hi Laura,
Even in the web world, I have trouble communicating with my sighted co-workers 
when I'm trying to explain what I'm looking at because I can't tell them where 
on the screen to find it. I can orient them and say that it's near a piece of 
text that says so and so, or that it's near the search button, or whatever, but 
it takes some communicating for sure at times to get my point across.

Jim

Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here. 
Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of qubit
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 5:40 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO

Greetings -- I haven't posted much to this list for a while, but this thread
caught my attention.  Things have not changed apparently -- when I was
working as a software developer, I did pretty much what you describe in your
mail -- I did not touch the user interface part of the code, but set up a
framework and a set of test commands to test my code independent of the UI.
If the UI turned out to be graphical, it would call my library of commands
to do the work.
There was always a process-intensive part of the code that didn't require
direct interaction with the user.  I always volunteered to work on that
code, both because it was interesting work and because the UI was either
awkward or very difficult for me to work on without sight.  This was back in
the late 80s and early 90s, before windows became a major  presence.  I did
compilers, IDE's and environment tools.
When windows went from being a novelty to be a requirement, I discovered
that navigating the screen with partial sight was harder than using a screen
reader, but at that time I knew no windows screen reader that I felt was
robust enough to support me on the job.  I also lost the rest of my sight
shortly thereafter.  Anyway, skipping ahead, I bought a pc with windows and
jaws and learned both after I lost my sight, and I've been on the various
lists ever since.

I think it is a good idea for a blind programmer to be familiar with the
nature / layout of the GUI of the program he/she is working on, so as to be
able to adapt the code to the GUI.  But design and implementation of the GUI
should probably left to someone who can either see, or understands how a
sighted person interacts with the computer.  I have a hard time explaining
computer operation to my elderly mother, who is very visual, simply because
I function solely using the keyboard and she almost never uses the keyboard
but does everything with the mouse.  She speaks a different language.
Sometimes she is amazed that I know how to do something when I can't even
tell her what side of the screen the associated icon is positioned.  In
fact, the thought occurs to me that this dilemma makes not just GUI
programming but also tech support jobs difficult for a blind person, unless
that person is willing to spend a big investment of time learning the GUI.

Anyway, these are just some of my musings.
Comments welcome.
--le



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Macarty" <jay.macarty2009@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO


Kerneels,

Very nicely put; thanks. I agree completely. Recently, I was technical
designer and one of the developGUI interface with existing legacy data
stores. It was designed as a set of web services using Weblogic 10.3; thus,
the coding and testing involved no graphical development on our side of the
project. For my coding work, I had a set of ant tasks to compile and deploy
the web services and some others to build simple web service client test
classes. Thus, most of the build and testing didn't even require any
particular IDE; I just ran the tasks from a command prompt. When my web
services were done, they were deployed to the project level Weblogic box and
tested along side everyone elses code and in the same timeframe as everyone
elses development eforts. This was a very rewarding experience for me.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerneels Roos" <kerneels@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO


>  I can't agree more your this statement Jay. As much as all of us want to
> create nice GUIs, it is really such such a battel for someone that can't
> see properly, if you are honest with yourself. I would say that the FB
> examples are indicative of this, since the FB concept is very simple yet
> for a visually impaired person to build a GUI  is a massive task in all
> fairness.
>
> I didn't  catch the whole story with the recent critisism of the FB
> examples, but I can understand why a professor for example would ridicule
> having the logic and presentation code (GUI code) all in one file. (or any
> other aspect of the FB stuff that servce the purpose of aiding blind
> people) It's a poor design choice for anything but an example, but then,
> that's exactly what the FB examples are -- tools to show you simple GUI
> creation in various programming languages. Personally I think it's great
> and I commend all the contributors. It's a service to the community, but
> sighted people will struggle to see it's worth.
>
> We must understand, for a fully sighted person, building GUIs is
> rediculously easy and straight forward. No matter what kind of accessible
> GUI designer tools there might be in future, the playing field will never
> be level when it comes to anything graphic. Yet there is no reason for
> despair, since there are numerous other areas in computer sciense and
> programming in particular where a blind person could compete well and I'm
> speculating that there might even be areas where having no or little sight
> might aid you!
>
> One particular small project I worked on while studying at university
> springs to mind. It was a little applet developed with AWT or Swing that
> saved your bookmarks in a tree structure. The professor was a gracious
> man, and he gave us a nice score for the project, but he stepped in after
> we did our presentation and basically told the  class that we really did
> spend much time on this and that we didn't just download it from the net
> or something... He did this, I think, because our project was fairly
> inferiour graphic wise compaired to the elaborate graphics the other
> student's projects sported even though I spent hours and hours on the
> little GUI side of the software.
>
> It's heart breaking for me when I read how hard blind folks try and make
> appealing graphical interfaces, or when I read about the struggles some
> software causes blind guys. It's commendable to see how people cope with
> the worst of situations, but there are also better areas to focus on,,
> areas where you'll be far more productive and make a better impact .
>
> It's a complex topic for me and there are much to say about it. What I'm
> wondering is if it is not a good time to review the way disabled people
> are trained up to believe that interaction with computers should commence
> in the generally accepted form of having a "normal" or sighted OS with all
> highly graphical applications with a rediculously advanced and complex and
> expensive screen reader stuck on top of it all.
>
> And then, on the other hand, how we can identify better software
> development areas to focus on where blindness poses less of an obsticle.
> Also, how we can advance in those areas and properly promote ourselves and
> our value to a software development shop developing for the general public
> or business where accessibility is of little concern. Myself for one have
> a little bit of a complex when think of all my years experience as a
> software developer and yet the difficulty with which I'm faced with when
> having to develop a GUI, and how someone with far less experience than
> myself could code a GUI so much faster and better looking in less time and
> with less effort.
>
> My challenge to the list; let's draw up a specification of areas in
> programming and computer science where visually impaired people can excell
> at in the modern age where graphics does play such a ever increasingly
> important part.
>
> Armed with such a specification we'll be in the right position to start
> and focus efforts on training ourselves up in those areas and then sharing
> knowledge and awareness so that a wel trained blind programmer (in the
> identified fields) could approach any development house with confidence of
> his / her abilities and value she / he will add to a company.
>
> Kerneels
>
> On 10/13/2010 12:31 AM, Jay Macarty wrote:
>> I would advise spending time on web development with java on the server
>> side. Either that or headless java development such as web services. Both
>> directions can allow a person to grow into a very strong java developer
>> with very marketable skill sets without fighting the constant battle of
>> either swing accessibility or trying to gain skills in an API, swt, which
>> may have somewhat limited acceptence in a large traditional java shop.
>> Personally, I love swt; however, as a tech lead, I can't push it into a
>> project here because it is not an accepted technology by our enterprise
>> architects.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Homme, James"
>> <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:02 AM
>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>
>>
>> Hi Jay,
>> Would you advise someone new to Java to spend more time on Swing, SWT, or
>> web?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Jim Homme,
>> Usability Services,
>> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
>> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
>> here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Macarty
>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:31 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>
>> Over the past couple of years, I have been involved in hiring java
>> developers several times. One of the things we have had trouble with is
>> finding people with swing experience. It seems that, while there are
>> certainly a number of applications still using swing heavily, a lot of
>> java
>> development is moving away from swing based GUI interfaces to using web
>> based front-ends. Perhaps, Oracle thinks that a declining interest in
>> using
>> swing as a UI means they don't need to spend as much effort on swing
>> accessibility but that thought path can certainly leave those of us who
>> still need access to heavily swing based apps in a spot.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO" <susan.stanzel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:11 PM
>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>
>>
>> Hi Listers,
>>
>> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that needing
>> government
>> contracts in the United States would have some affect on all this. I have
>> asked people about swing and I am told it isn't used very much because
>> there
>> is newer technology out there. I am not an experienced Java programmer so
>> maybe the rest of you will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at
>> my
>> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool of
>> myself,
>> it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
>>
>> Susie Stanzel
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The Elf
>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>
>> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>>
>> or hound,or pummel,  or...
>>
>> elf
>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>> Specialists in customized computers and peripherals
>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>> for blind computer users and programmers
>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>
>>
>>> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally the voice
>>> of
>>> reason has made itself known.
>>>
>>> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into actually
>>> not abandoning it.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.  It's
>>> time
>>> to get people to get active and start emailing and
>>> calling them till they do support it.  If we stay away we lose what
>>> accessibility was there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Storm Dragon
>>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on Linux
>>> accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over Sun.
>>> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software
>>> decisions,
>>> to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay far
>>> far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going to get rid of
>>> Open Office but fortunately the version used in Ubuntu is a
>>> fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they somehow manage to win
>>> their evil attack on Google. If that happens, who knows who
>>> they will attack next. Keep your fingers crossed, and maybe the open
>>> source community will keep the Bridge going, Orca is still
>>> alive and well after all.
>>> Storm
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Registered Linux user number 508465:
>>> http://counter.li.org/
>>> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>>> http://www.stormdragon.us/
>>> Get yourself a Frostbox:
>>> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> oh know,
>>> i wish its just a rumor.
>>> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> prateek agarwal.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to discontinue
>>>> support for the Java Access Bridge (and no alternative is planned).  I
>>>> would be glad to be convinced otherwise.  If anyone has information
>>>> regarding this topic, please share.
>>>>
>>>> Jamal
>>>>
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>
> --
> Kerneels Roos
> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
> Skype: cornelis.roos
>
> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>
> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>   The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>    -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on consulting.
>
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